Help! We're confused!!

karma chameleon

New Member
Hello everyone,

I've been reading this forum for weeks and it's been a great help so far. We are baby sitting our friends chameleon while they travel, so we are VERY inexperienced!!

Firstly, they (the owners) ownly found out the chameleon was a female a couple of weeks before they left her with us, and they nonchalantly said "oh she might lay eggs, so just sift the sand every now and then to check". Anyway, after a week she stopped eating, would show signs of stress (clinging low to the branches, digging in the sand, CONSTANTLY trying to escape from the enclosure, puffing out her throat and darkening in colour) which is why we turned the net (and our local pet store!) to find out what was wrong. :confused:

We tried everything to make her happy - we bought a thermometer for the tank and found out it was too cold, so we bought a heat lamp to warm it up. We bought more sand for her to lay in, bought some more greenery for the tank for her to hide behind, and more wooden tree type things so she could dig around to lay. While she didn't eat, she was exceptionally thirsty so we were misting her 3-4 times a day for 5 minutes straight. At one point she was so thirsty she grabbed the spray bottle and drank directly from it! Eventually after much work (over 17 hours of digging!) and finally getting the tank to 30 degrees, she did lay eggs, 88 of them in fact :eek: - now that seems like A LOT to me, especially for her first time. How many do they usually lay?

So the day she laid she finally started eating again thank goodness :D (no wonder she didn't eat for a week though, there was no room in her body for food!) and in fact, now she is eating more than double what she was before. She will eat 10 crickets/locusts a day without a hiccup, plus a couple of worms. She is so ravenous that as soon as she sees us pick up the container with the bugs in, she races to the door to get them. She is so keen that she sometimes has lashed out with her tongue before I have even got the lid off, and a couple of times she has collected 2 at once and gulped them down.

So the first question is: is that normal for her to be eating so much, and should we continue to feed her what she is currently consuming or could we be overfeeding her?

The second question is: how often should they be having bowel movements? I have not seen her poo since she started eating again, and I'm sure she had a movement at least every day or 2 before the laying. I've read threads about impaction, so this is an obvious concern, but she appears healthy, strong and very lively, and I thought she would stop eating if she had constipation? She still seems very plump though (definitely not as plump as she was before she layed!) and does not appear to be in any discomfort.

She's drinking normally (we mist her a couple of times a day for 3-4 minutes and set up a water dripper using a plastic cup) but I've seen a suggestion to try and shower her to encourage a movement?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

Many thanks!
Angie

FYI: yes that is her in the photo!!
 
Yes there is a UV lamp on the top of the enclosure.

I believe she is a Yemen Chameleon, and she's only about 6-7 months old (I think!).
 
Hey Angie, looks like your doing things right! I am glad you found the forum and were able to help the little lady out. The eating is sorta normal. People will say you should limit a females intake so they don't lay lots of clutches and wear themselves out. After laying, this isn't really necessary. You can let her eat what she can for now because it takes a lot out of them when they lay eggs. I am not sure of the size of your food items, but 10 a day isn't too bad. They do need a calcium supplement now more than ever because of the deposit of the eggs. Are you dusting her food with any sort of supplement? A shower would be a good idea maybe every other day to help her rehydrate. A lot of fluids are lost when laying.

As for lighting, what are brands are you using? What wattage? What kind of tank/cage is she in? How big is the tank/cage? How old is she? what kind of chameleon is she?

There is a sticky thread at the top of the health clinic forum that is a template for asking for help. If you could fill it out as best you can, you will get a lot more help rather than questions clarifying your setups configuration.
 
holy crap! 88 eggs. are they fertile (i hope not)? my cham poops about once every 2-3 days. so if she hasnt pooped in a day or 2 dont worry.
 
The UV lamp is 15w and its Exo Terra, while the other spot lamp is 60w and it's EuroRep.

We took her to the vet before she layed for a calcium injection, and we have been gut loading her food (medium - large crickets and locusts) with Bug Grub, which has a lot of calcium as well.

The vivarium is quite small, only about 20x20x20 cm, and it's all glass, with a mess top.

And no the eggs aren't fertile, so that is a helluva lot of energy to waste.

But the real concern is the poo, she hasn't done one since before she layed (which was last Wednesday) and then it was really watery anyway because she hadn't eaten in a week before that.

Thanks for your replies!!
 
The showers might help her with poo a little bit. Make the water warm to increase success.

People have tried a small dab of cooking oil on a cricket. A small amount will help the cham pass the food. I think I have heard this from kinyonga

I just read a thread about pooping issues. One person had placed the cham in a bowl with warm water about half way up the body of the cham. They provided a stick for the cham to hold onto and the cham was able to make a deposit ;)
 
Thanks Brad! That's reassuring. I didn't think she had an impaction as she is not in any discomfort and is still eating heaps!

What's with no D3 though? The Bug Grub for gut loading the insects is a protein, calcium and D3 supplement, the only other calcium we have is a liquid supplement (that we were giving her when she wasn't eating) called Zolcal-D but it has D3 in it as well. The only other dusting supplement we have is Repton, which also looks like it has quite a bit of D3 in it. What is the effect of D3 and would I be better of not dusting than using the stuff with D3 in it?

Thank you everyone for your other suggestions - if she hasn't pooped by tomorrow I'm going to try the warm bath option.

Angie
 
For being inexperienced you are doing very well! Congratulations for getting her through a difficult time!

88 eggs is way to many for a veiled to lay IMHO. I would feed her well for a couple of days and then cut back on the amount of food to prevent her from laying such a big clutch again. Once she is working on the next clutch she can be fed more again...but not all she wants!

See Brad's blog on raising kitty...
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

Here's the short course on supplements/nutrition...Exposure to UVB either from direct sunlight or from exposure to a UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 which in turn allows it to use the calcium in its system. (The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic.)

D3 from supplements builds up in the chameleon's system and can cause problems. IMHO the chameleon should get most of its D3 as a result of exposure to UVB. The D3 from supplements should be kept to a minimum to prevent an overdose. I dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder...lightly.

Most of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous so dusting at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder helps to make up for this.

I dust with a vitamin powder that has a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene will not build up in the system but preformed vitamin A will. Now, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene...so a little bit of preformed can be given once in a while. Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

In addition to supplementing...appropriate basking temperatures allow for good digestion and thus play a part in nutrient absorption.

Gutloading gets things into the insect that we want it to have and feeding the insects nutritious diets also helps.

Also, is your UVB a compact/spiral type light or a long linear tube? The compacts have been causing eye problems in chameleons and other lizards.

summoner12...said..."People have tried a small dab of cooking oil on a cricket. A small amount will help the cham pass the food. I think I have heard this from kinyonga"...I don't think I ever said that. It might have been Will who said it. I have said to use pear though.

Hopefully the chameleon will pass some feces soon!
 
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dusting with D3 all the time is not a good idea. D3 is made when the cham is sitting in the sun. The body can make as much as it needs as long as it has the resources. If the animal is fed premade D3 the body can't stop absorbing it because it isn't in control. The cham can't 'turn off' the D3 absorption. You need to find a calcium powder that is phosphorus free and does not have D3.

Here is a link to some supplements that are good to have on hand.

Without D3
 
Thanks for the replies.... I will look into those supplements.

The UV light above her tank is a tube style.

I have attached a couple of photos showing her, one of her the night before she laid when she was just stretched out on the tree trying to get comfortable - look how big she is!! - one of the tank where we had hot water bottles & wheat packs up against the glass to try and get the temperature up (plus a desk lamp before we were able to buy the proper heat lamp), one when she was digging (I helped make a sturdy tunnel using a plastic plant pot because the first 2 tunnels collapsed on her!) and a photo of the eggs. I couldn't believe it when I counted them, I have heard of chameleon's dying from stress after laying 20 or so!!

This has definitely been an experience looking after her!
 

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Well it certainly seems like you've done your research. There are many people that are trying to keep chameleons that aren't as knowledgeable. GREAT JOB !! :cool:

While I'm not very experienced with the POOPING issue there are a couple of other concerns that I'm rather surprised nobody else has mentioned. It's generally not advisable to keep a chameleon in a tank or glass enclosure. The tank can heat up very quickly and is not ventilated well with all glass sides which can result in the cham overheating. An all or partial mesh enclosure is generally recommended. While I understand that you're just watching the chameleon for friends you may want to suggest that they get a larger mesh enclosure when they return and just keep an eye on the temps in the tank for now.

And if the eggs are fertile they will not likely do well in the container you have them in. Of course if you believe them not to be fertile then you don't have to worry about it. However if you would like to incubate the eggs check out this thread ... https://www.chameleonforums.com/veiled-chameleon-not-laying-6156/. Check partway down and you will see the setup used for the eggs. There are also likely many other useful and more experienced threads on the forum about this. There is also a thread with the babies that hatched from these eggs here ... https://www.chameleonforums.com/babies-hatched-11314/.

Please excuse me if I've missed something earlier in the thread that perhaps addresses these issues as I just quickly skimmed through some of the posts.

So keep up the good work and keep us posted. You can come look after my chameleons any time!! LOLOL

Dyesub Dave. :D
 
I am boggled by the amount of work and research you have done while simply "looking after" a friends chameleon. The expense of the vet trip etc suggests you are more responsible then the true owner. (are you going to ask for it when they return?):rolleyes:
How long are they away anyway?

Without you contacting this forum, and acting on the advice given, I'm afraid this creature's future was grim.

Congrats on a job well done ... now get dusting with that calcium, and try to talk the owner into a screen cage!:D (no ventilation can also lead to bacterial infections)
 
Thanks everyone!! :D

The tank does have a mesh top, so it's not completely glass. Is one mesh side enough or would you still recommend completely mesh? How do you control the temperature with mesh sides? At the moment, we have just been able to get the temperature up to 30, and that is with wheat packs/hot water bottles and a 100w desk lamp shining in the side. Now we have the 60w EuroRep light, the temp gets to around 26-28. We've attached the thermometer to the glass in the middle of the tank, on the opposite side to the lamp, I hope we are still getting accurate readings? :confused:

I'm (almost) positive the eggs aren't fertile. The owners have had her since May, and she was quite small then, she can't have been very old? Attached are photos of when they first got her (not sure where they got her from though) and she has been isolated ever since. As I said though, they were told she was a male and only found out she was female about 2 weeks before they left her with us (we've had her a month now).

And the owners are back this week, so I'm glad we were able to get her through this difficult time, but no we're not going to ask for money as we took on the responsibility, and we weren't forced to take her to the vet, we just needed to ease our minds and know why she wasn't eating! Besides, these guys are very good friends, and I'm sure over the course of our friendship the favour has already, or will be returned.... karma chameleon!!

Thing is, we've actually really enjoyed looking after her, and are considering getting our own! I saw someone post in this forum "and so the addiction begins..." SO TRUE!!! I think we'll get a male though :cool:
 

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Euro set ups are different compared to most american set ups. You'll have to talk to an experienced Euro keeper on here. But I can tell you that your cham should be in something taller.
 
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