Healthy again
- Thread starter Fate X
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ChameleonsTree
New Member
So soon ?
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
You should realize that laying 95 eggs, and/or double clutching, is not healthy behavior. It's a result of being heavily overfed. Veiled chameleons that lat over 30-40 eggs regularly are eating way too much. Laying eggs just a couple months apart is also a sign that they are eating way too much.
The dangers of overfeeding include increased chances of egg-binding, increased chance of dying eggbound from other reasons, drastically shortened lives (for males and females), and uncontrollable MBD due to hyperactive egg development - they can go on a cycle of developing eggs so frequently, there is no way to stop them from getting MBD, even with liquid calcium. I've seen it even in unmated females!
How much are you feeding those guys?
The dangers of overfeeding include increased chances of egg-binding, increased chance of dying eggbound from other reasons, drastically shortened lives (for males and females), and uncontrollable MBD due to hyperactive egg development - they can go on a cycle of developing eggs so frequently, there is no way to stop them from getting MBD, even with liquid calcium. I've seen it even in unmated females!
How much are you feeding those guys?
Fate X
New Member
intresting info because lucky'sbeen looking gravid and now splinter is gravid today there is no doubt splinter is gravid ,she looked ok until today.
my theory on what happened is that both of them had already started to develop eggs then when i put them in the males cages they mated after the mating i started putting them in the egg laying chamber where they laid their eggs after about a week, i think that the eggs they are making now are from the mating , thats what the double clutch term means i guess ,i am not happy with this turn of events i would of rather waited more time for a second clutch but they are at the point of no return all i can do is let the process run its course and hope for the best.
lucky,s been having dark shade spots since she laid her eggs she dont look as gravid as splinter.
splinter looked normal all this time until today, she is gravid that being dark green with the blue robin egg spots , she showed no signs of being gravid that i could see until today. i am hoping for a lower egg count then before because i dont want either of them to die.
any suggestions on how i can keep the egg count low and help them survive , if the suggestions make sense i may consider them , i usually take most advice seems to work for me.
they were eating alot .now they dont eat so much, they were eating as much as they could
my theory on what happened is that both of them had already started to develop eggs then when i put them in the males cages they mated after the mating i started putting them in the egg laying chamber where they laid their eggs after about a week, i think that the eggs they are making now are from the mating , thats what the double clutch term means i guess ,i am not happy with this turn of events i would of rather waited more time for a second clutch but they are at the point of no return all i can do is let the process run its course and hope for the best.
lucky,s been having dark shade spots since she laid her eggs she dont look as gravid as splinter.
splinter looked normal all this time until today, she is gravid that being dark green with the blue robin egg spots , she showed no signs of being gravid that i could see until today. i am hoping for a lower egg count then before because i dont want either of them to die.
any suggestions on how i can keep the egg count low and help them survive , if the suggestions make sense i may consider them , i usually take most advice seems to work for me.
they were eating alot .now they dont eat so much, they were eating as much as they could
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
"As much as they could" is usually way too much. Adult veileds can eat dozens of insects a day. They can maintain weight, even gain weight, on just a few insects every other day.
I feed my females every other day, 2-5 insects, depending on the size of the insect. That's it. They become receptive, mate and become gravid. I then increase feedings, slightly, to ensure they don't lose body mass. Typically, my females have laid between 30-45 eggs, with the first clutches being larger (I am hesitant to restrict food on a growing animal). The average clutch size, after the first clutch, is usually around 30. Females that lay smaller clutches usually come out of it looking good. No sunken eyes, excessive loss of body mass (excluding the obvious!), and no nutritional problems.
Females that lay giant clutches of eggs (50+) have a harder time throughout the ordeal, from developing eggs (it take a lot out of them - literally), to getting about, to actually digging and laying them. Oftentimes, the por things are skiny, dehydrated, and suffering from calcium problems.
When they are healthy and not overfed, their bodies do not respond by developing huge clutches of eggs (an adaptation to exploit the "good times" in nature). instead, they produce a modest clutch, that does not excessivly tax the female's body.
In nature, the chances are they never lay clutches of 70, 80 or 100 eggs. Still laying larger than average clutches takes a toll on the female. They in effect, sacrifice their personal longevity in order to get more offspring out into the world. Similarly, if the climate's been harsh, they will hold off for a while, and develop fewer eggs. This is a more conservative approach - the female can live longer, and porduce eggs in a more favorable environment.
It also happens that smaller clutches tend to have larger, more robust eggs. Huge clutches have tiny eggs. The bigger eggs tend to produce larger hatchlings.
In captivity, things are different. Food is available in abundance not seen in any wild ecosystem. We must activly limit food to get the desired effects: If you want more eggs, and less long lived females, feed more. If you want fewer eggs, fewer times a year, and longer lived animals, feed less.
Most hobbyists that breed the animals for fun shoot for low numbers of eggs/clutches. Breeders that sell wholesale quantities of animals usually don't.
I feed my females every other day, 2-5 insects, depending on the size of the insect. That's it. They become receptive, mate and become gravid. I then increase feedings, slightly, to ensure they don't lose body mass. Typically, my females have laid between 30-45 eggs, with the first clutches being larger (I am hesitant to restrict food on a growing animal). The average clutch size, after the first clutch, is usually around 30. Females that lay smaller clutches usually come out of it looking good. No sunken eyes, excessive loss of body mass (excluding the obvious!), and no nutritional problems.
Females that lay giant clutches of eggs (50+) have a harder time throughout the ordeal, from developing eggs (it take a lot out of them - literally), to getting about, to actually digging and laying them. Oftentimes, the por things are skiny, dehydrated, and suffering from calcium problems.
When they are healthy and not overfed, their bodies do not respond by developing huge clutches of eggs (an adaptation to exploit the "good times" in nature). instead, they produce a modest clutch, that does not excessivly tax the female's body.
In nature, the chances are they never lay clutches of 70, 80 or 100 eggs. Still laying larger than average clutches takes a toll on the female. They in effect, sacrifice their personal longevity in order to get more offspring out into the world. Similarly, if the climate's been harsh, they will hold off for a while, and develop fewer eggs. This is a more conservative approach - the female can live longer, and porduce eggs in a more favorable environment.
It also happens that smaller clutches tend to have larger, more robust eggs. Huge clutches have tiny eggs. The bigger eggs tend to produce larger hatchlings.
In captivity, things are different. Food is available in abundance not seen in any wild ecosystem. We must activly limit food to get the desired effects: If you want more eggs, and less long lived females, feed more. If you want fewer eggs, fewer times a year, and longer lived animals, feed less.
Most hobbyists that breed the animals for fun shoot for low numbers of eggs/clutches. Breeders that sell wholesale quantities of animals usually don't.
Fate X
New Member
when they were smaller they ate alot ,about 20-25 crickets per day now these were not large crickets, when i started feeding them 3/4 crickets in june they only eat maybe 10 a day sometimes 8 or so,on a good day maybe 15 and thats when i first get the crickets and they are not as big after they grow a week or two they eat less crickets like i was saying around 8 with maybe a superworm every other day . i am going to feed them a strict diet of maybe 8-10 crickets a day depending on the size.
do the smaller 1/2 crickets have more protein etc. then adults? because im gonna have 1/2 in about a week.
the last time they laid there eggs in july they looked good after laying the eggs ,just a little dehydrated but there eyes were not sunk in. i was thinking because the eggs didnt drain the calcium from them.
do the smaller 1/2 crickets have more protein etc. then adults? because im gonna have 1/2 in about a week.
the last time they laid there eggs in july they looked good after laying the eggs ,just a little dehydrated but there eyes were not sunk in. i was thinking because the eggs didnt drain the calcium from them.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
8-10 is still going to be way too much. I'd cut that in half. Go 3-4 a day, and see if they stabalize in weight and body condition - you do not want them to stabalize at "fat". I don't even feed my 19" melleri 4, 3/4" crickets a day, and she's been gaining weight. I'd start cutting food some time AFTER they lay their eggs, as long as they're not emaciated.
My last clutch of veiled eggs is about to hatch. The female is now gravid, about to lay her second clutch. About 6 months between clutches. When they're overfed, they could start developing eggs constantly, and it might not be reversible. Try to cut down on food, but don't deprive them of nutrients when they're developing eggs. It's very difficult to stop them once they've gone into a cycle of developing lots of eggs, very often.
You end up with more eggs, but you lose the females soon. Cut back on superworms, they're very fatty. Try feeding some flowers and greens, they are high in bulk and low in calories. That may help maintain nutrient input, and decrease the protein and fat input. In some time, you may be able to turn her reproductive cycle down a few notches.
My last clutch of veiled eggs is about to hatch. The female is now gravid, about to lay her second clutch. About 6 months between clutches. When they're overfed, they could start developing eggs constantly, and it might not be reversible. Try to cut down on food, but don't deprive them of nutrients when they're developing eggs. It's very difficult to stop them once they've gone into a cycle of developing lots of eggs, very often.
You end up with more eggs, but you lose the females soon. Cut back on superworms, they're very fatty. Try feeding some flowers and greens, they are high in bulk and low in calories. That may help maintain nutrient input, and decrease the protein and fat input. In some time, you may be able to turn her reproductive cycle down a few notches.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
To do that, you have to cut back on feeding her. Keep feeding her 5-8 crickets a day, and she's going to be laying large clutches. The problem is, if she's developing eggs too often, you can't cut back without putting her at risk for nutritional problems. Cut back slowly, and keep track of her condition.
