has any one else herd of this.
- Thread starter ChameleonBoy26
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Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I have heard of chameleon ranching in Florida and am not a fan. Chameleons are invasive species in North America and chameleon ranching , I think, should only happen in the species of chameleons native habitat, the chameleons species native country.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
I’ve heard of it being done in more southern Florida and find it totally irresponsible, amongst a few other negative things. It’s things like this that give reptile keeping and keepers a bad name and reputation. These poor animals are considered invasive here in Florida and like it or not, they do interfere with the natural ecosystem. They say in the clip that chameleons are worth a couple of thousand - they are thinking about captive and responsibly raised Parson’s chameleons by keeper’s who have earned excellent reputations. They show veileds, which sadly have been devalued enough that almost no one finds it worth breeding anymore, probably because of practices like this combined with the reptile mills which keep pet stores stocked. As for the panthers, and any other type of chameleon, the price correlates with the reputation of the breeder. The better breeders can and do charge premium prices for all that they have put into breeding for the strongest, healthiest, most beautiful animals, years of experience, providing support before and after you buy from them and all they do to promote responsible keeping (and more I’m sure).
On a personal note, I have a male veiled that was found locally by some kids and by luck, found his way to me. He was quite sick with giardia when I got him and it wasn’t a pleasant experience for him or I to restore him to good health. I wasn’t even sure he’d survive. However, poor guy misses his freedom. It took him a year to accept his containment and with his screen climbing (looking for a way out) he tore most of his nails out. I believe he is and probably always will be saddened to be in a cage, no matter how big or nice I try to make it. It hurts my heart that I can’t give him the freedom he was born in and misses.
On a personal note, I have a male veiled that was found locally by some kids and by luck, found his way to me. He was quite sick with giardia when I got him and it wasn’t a pleasant experience for him or I to restore him to good health. I wasn’t even sure he’d survive. However, poor guy misses his freedom. It took him a year to accept his containment and with his screen climbing (looking for a way out) he tore most of his nails out. I believe he is and probably always will be saddened to be in a cage, no matter how big or nice I try to make it. It hurts my heart that I can’t give him the freedom he was born in and misses.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
There will always be a few who claim that ranching will replace importation of rarer desirable species that are vulnerable to exploitation. Take the collection and smuggling pressure off species such as the Parson's shown in the link. Well, just how extensive does anyone think the desire for pet chameleons actually is? Not very. It's a specialist hobby and chances are it will stay that way. Chameleon keeping is relatively complex compared to keeping snakes and other terrestrial lizards.
Obviously, introducing more nonnative animals to a totally alien landscape is a bad idea. FL is the North American poster child for those sorts of mistakes. Then there's Hawaii or Australia, just to name a few. The animal itself is bad enough, but what about the parasites, diseases, or novel strains of e coli and other gut microorganisms it introduces? The native wildlife in the area being ranched certainly wasn't consulted about any of that. The introduced animal will upset the area's existing predator-prey network. On and on. Just another example of human ignorance and arrogance. Exotic farmed animals escape their confinements all the time!
Then there are the ethical considerations. How much worse is taking a "wild" chameleon out of its native Malagasy or African habitat, shipping it, then confining it in captivity compared to taking a "ranched" chameleon from its foster habitat, shipping it, then confining it in captivity? Both have lost their liberty, lost access to the varied diet and activity they used to enjoy. Both have also been exposed to who knows how many parasites and diseases and will suffer the consequences when going through the stress of capture and confinement.
Obviously, introducing more nonnative animals to a totally alien landscape is a bad idea. FL is the North American poster child for those sorts of mistakes. Then there's Hawaii or Australia, just to name a few. The animal itself is bad enough, but what about the parasites, diseases, or novel strains of e coli and other gut microorganisms it introduces? The native wildlife in the area being ranched certainly wasn't consulted about any of that. The introduced animal will upset the area's existing predator-prey network. On and on. Just another example of human ignorance and arrogance. Exotic farmed animals escape their confinements all the time!
Then there are the ethical considerations. How much worse is taking a "wild" chameleon out of its native Malagasy or African habitat, shipping it, then confining it in captivity compared to taking a "ranched" chameleon from its foster habitat, shipping it, then confining it in captivity? Both have lost their liberty, lost access to the varied diet and activity they used to enjoy. Both have also been exposed to who knows how many parasites and diseases and will suffer the consequences when going through the stress of capture and confinement.
That is not a good thing at all!!!
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chameleon ranching can be done great when done in the chameleon species native range and native habitats. The main idea is exports for collecting can come from ranching chameleons and not collecting chameleons from wild pristine habitats. That is keeping pristine habitats pristine. As well if chameleons escape the ranching area they contribute to the wild population and the ranches add habitat and native range too the countries native chameleon species. Adding more range and habitat to a chameleon species native range and native habitat is GREAT as those are major conservation issues. However as stated above if chameleon ranching is done outside the chameleon species native range and habitat as an invasive species, can and does cause major ecological issues with other non native pristine, semi pristine habitats and ecosystems.
I for one am for ranching chameleons when done in their native range and habitats. I think that ranching chameleons is a great technique to expand and conserve chameleons native ranges and habitats. There are some Trioceros, Calumma and Furcifer species I think ranching would be doing wonders for and is a technique that I think could delist some endangered species (some being Furcifer minor, Calumma globifer, and Furcifer balteatus). Plus ranching is a technique to conserve some other threatened chameleon species on the mainland of Africa such as Trioceros quadricornis ssp., Trioceros montium , Trioceros cristatus and etc.....
All this happening done through CITES as a CITES ranching operation. This type of CITES operations is being done for other threatened species around the globe (such as Scleropages formosus) and I think can be applied to for other reptiles and chameleon species.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
I for one am for ranching chameleons when done in their native range and habitats. I think that ranching chameleons is a great technique to expand and conserve chameleons native ranges and habitats. There are some Trioceros, Calumma and Furcifer species I think ranching would be doing wonders for and is a technique that I think could delist some endangered species (some being Furcifer minor, Calumma globifer, and Furcifer balteatus). Plus ranching is a technique to conserve some other threatened chameleon species on the mainland of Africa such as Trioceros quadricornis ssp., Trioceros montium , Trioceros cristatus and etc.....
All this happening done through CITES as a CITES ranching operation. This type of CITES operations is being done for other threatened species around the globe (such as Scleropages formosus) and I think can be applied to for other reptiles and chameleon species.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Bump!! Everyone on the Chameleon Forums stopped posting today.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
ehdee6
Avid Member
I think this all just highlights the importance of environmental law.
Can we raise wild animals, from a different continent, in another? It's been far beyond proven, we can. But, as @MissSkittles and @Carlton have said, it brings extreme consequences to the environment you've introduced the species to. This is why it has to be regulated.
However, even then as @Carlton said; there's a biological aspect with foreign parasites, diseases, or novel strains. We as humans, somewhat, experienced this consequence with "COVID"; or to a more historical event (in Canada) smallpox. There's no real way to rid certain biological viruses; without, either slowly introducing the virus to the community (vaccination), or completely segregating the community affected (quarantine).
Even within it's natural environment; say you also now have a regulated environment to raise the species. Like a salmon farm, you've now got farmed fish from inland tanks living (although in nets) in the wild ocean. This still introduced unpredictable issues. Such as, the explosion of sea lice now feasting on the introduced farmed salmon; who don't have any natural way to defend it, and consequently the explosion of sea lice are now infesting the wild salmon. This is a real issue we're facing, mad cow, Avian Influenza... It all goes to show the negative of farming.
I think what I'm trying to say is, if it's legal to farm the animal and it's within its natural environment; it can better society, but there will still be risks. And no matter what, any animal farming outdoors should be heavily regulated.
... This can also cause another conversation, is it even right to raise the species in a completely controlled environment, and then release it back into its natural one? I see this not so much as farming, but as conservation. As @Motherlode Chameleon demonstrated, perhaps a legal "farming" method of breeding the more exotic species to make them available to the pet trade would help eliviate the demand of illegal export. Which, ultimately, leads to their extinction in the wild.
But, no matter what the argument is; the "Farming" in this video is not only illegal, but incredibly morally wrong.
... My apologies lots of grammar edits.
Can we raise wild animals, from a different continent, in another? It's been far beyond proven, we can. But, as @MissSkittles and @Carlton have said, it brings extreme consequences to the environment you've introduced the species to. This is why it has to be regulated.
However, even then as @Carlton said; there's a biological aspect with foreign parasites, diseases, or novel strains. We as humans, somewhat, experienced this consequence with "COVID"; or to a more historical event (in Canada) smallpox. There's no real way to rid certain biological viruses; without, either slowly introducing the virus to the community (vaccination), or completely segregating the community affected (quarantine).
Even within it's natural environment; say you also now have a regulated environment to raise the species. Like a salmon farm, you've now got farmed fish from inland tanks living (although in nets) in the wild ocean. This still introduced unpredictable issues. Such as, the explosion of sea lice now feasting on the introduced farmed salmon; who don't have any natural way to defend it, and consequently the explosion of sea lice are now infesting the wild salmon. This is a real issue we're facing, mad cow, Avian Influenza... It all goes to show the negative of farming.
I think what I'm trying to say is, if it's legal to farm the animal and it's within its natural environment; it can better society, but there will still be risks. And no matter what, any animal farming outdoors should be heavily regulated.
... This can also cause another conversation, is it even right to raise the species in a completely controlled environment, and then release it back into its natural one? I see this not so much as farming, but as conservation. As @Motherlode Chameleon demonstrated, perhaps a legal "farming" method of breeding the more exotic species to make them available to the pet trade would help eliviate the demand of illegal export. Which, ultimately, leads to their extinction in the wild.
But, no matter what the argument is; the "Farming" in this video is not only illegal, but incredibly morally wrong.
... My apologies lots of grammar edits.
Last edited:
ehdee6
Avid Member
Just for further information on the invasiveness of Vailed's and Jackson's, here's what's happening in Hawaii.
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/veiled-chameleon/
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/jacksons-chameleon/
Note that the above information is from a legal perspective, and not information for keeping/husbandry.
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/veiled-chameleon/
https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/hisc/info/invasive-species-profiles/jacksons-chameleon/
Note that the above information is from a legal perspective, and not information for keeping/husbandry.
Last edited:
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I am not talking about farming chameleons inside enclosures. I am talking about the technique that is in the video called "Chameleon Ranching". This technique is where have got a reforested piece of land or grove of agriculture tree's and you allow a couple pairs of say Calumma parsonii parsonii to live in these habitats and breed. Then in 5 years time your 4 Calumma parsonii parsonii turns into 10-20 Calumma parsonii parsonii. The rancher can then collect 4-10 Calumma parsonii parsonii for export while maintaining a healthy Calumma parsonii parsonii colony in the reforested or agriculture tree habitats. This technique is already happening in Agriculture groves in Madagascar. However a "Warning" this technique only does the job when applied to in the chameleons species native range and country. However I think this technique could be used to repopulate chameleon populations in reforested areas, add a larger range for chameleon habitat, and to delist endangered chameleon species.I think this all just highlights the importance of environmental law.
Can we raise wild animals, from a different continent, in another? It's been far beyond proven, we can. But, as @MissSkittles and @Carlton have said, it brings extreme consequences to the environment you've introduced the species to. This is why it has to be regulated.
However, even then as @Carlton said; there's a biological aspect with foreign parasites, diseases, or novel strains. We as humans, somewhat, experienced this consequence with "COVID"; or to a more historical event (in Canada) smallpox. There's no real way to rid certain biological viruses; without, either slowly introducing the virus to the community (vaccination), or completely segregating the community affected (quarantine).
Even within it's natural environment; say you also now have a regulated environment to raise the species. Like a salmon farm, you've now got farmed fish from inland tanks living (although in nets) in the wild ocean. This still introduced unpredictable issues. Such as, the explosion of sea lice now feasting on the introduced farmed salmon; who don't have any natural way to defend it, and consequently the explosion of sea lice are now infesting the wild salmon. This is a real issue we're facing, mad cow, Avian Influenza... It all goes to show the negative of farming.
I think what I'm trying to say is, if it's legal to farm the animal and it's within its natural environment; it can better society, but there will still be risks. And no matter what, any animal farming outdoors should be heavily regulated.
... This can also cause another conversation, is it even right to raise the species in a completely controlled environment, and then release it back into its natural one? I see this not so much as farming, but as conservation. As @Motherlode Chameleon demonstrated, perhaps a legal "farming" method of breeding the more exotic species to make them available to the pet trade would help eliviate the demand of illegal export. Which, ultimately, leads to their extinction in the wild.
But, no matter what the argument is; the "Farming" in this video is not only illegal, but incredibly morally wrong.
... My apologies lots of grammar edits.
Ranching and Farming are not the same technique. Techniques of this nature are being used with CITES regulation for species around the world.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
ehdee6
Avid Member
Call it ranching/farming whatever, in the end CITES is a conservation society. I'd say that falls in the category of controlled and regulated breeding of the animal to keep its population stable. Which is how it should be done... And, not by some random hick tossing animals out into a foreign landscape to make money...
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Right.
Ranching is a conservation technique regulated by CITES that can lead to some exports.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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