Gravid?

[rlschwer]

Is Bonnie gravid? 8 month old ambilobe, never laid eggs before, never bred. I didn't see a receptive period, but maybe I just didn't notice? There is a laybin in the enclosure.

 

[Dbash44]

Is Bonnie gravid? 8 month old ambilobe, never laid eggs before, never bred. I didn't see a receptive period, but maybe I just didn't notice? There is a laybin in the enclosure.

Did you ever get an answer to this?

If not, it would help if you could post some pictures of her closer to the camera.

What is your feeding schedule for her and how much do you feed at each feeding?

Your ambilobe's colors look similar to one of mine when she's gravid. With mine, she has subtle changes in her color when gravid. I only knew she gravid at first by watching her behavior. Now I can just see the subtle changes I mentioned whenever she is gravid.

Either way, if you're worried, it never hurts to have a lay bin in the enclosure. Do you know how to properly set up one?

 

[rlschwer]

I didn't get an answer, thanks for checking! Here's the info, it applies to both Bonnie and Gert (her sister that I got at the same time. Yes, they are in separate enclosures ?. I believe I set up the laybin correctly; each has a bin about 12L*8W*12H, filled to an inch below the top with a 2:1:1 mix of Coco coir, play sand, and organic topsoil taken from last year's garden box, all sterilized for 2.5 hours at 215°F. It has good structure and is consistently moist; I've seen each of the girls dig at least once when I first put them in, but that may have been curiosity.

I couldn't get pics of Bonnie again, since she is currently digging in her rhipsalis and I don't want to disturb her, but I attached pics of Gert. Both are pretty similar in coloration, though Bonnie has some more reds while Gert shows yellows.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Gert/Bonnie is a female ambilobe panther, about 8 months old. She and her sister (separate enclosures) have been in my care for 4 months. Gert currently weighs 51g and Bonnie is 49g.
• Handling - 1-3 times/week; she doesn't seem to enjoy it, but I want her used to it for cage cleaning/weighing/health checks. I do hand feed dubia daily, however, and she has no problem taking from my fingers
• Feeding - Staple is dubia. Was allowed to eat as much as she wanted until ~1.5 months ago, now down to 5-7 small-medium roaches/day. Also have ~5 medium bsfl and bbfl 2x/week, and the occasional hornworm/waxworm. I throw in 4 blue bottle flies each week so she has something to hunt; they're usually all gone by the end of the 2nd day.
• Supplements - I have human-grade powdered calcium carbonate that I dust all feeders lightly with; One day each week, instead of plain calcium, I use the following: flukers calcium powder with D3 on weeks 1 and 3, Exo-terra multivitamin on week 2, and Miner-all indoor formula multivitamin on week 4.
• Watering - There is a homemade dripper set to drip 1x every 4 seconds, which lands on a Maranta leaf before falling into a catch glass. In addition, I mist the enclosure by hand before I leave (~4 AM) before lights on, and again when I get home around 3PM. There is a mister set to run ~1/2 hour before lights go off and continue to run for another 2-3 hours after.
• Fecal Description - Seem normal, occasionally less firm if multiple hornworms are given in the same day. Urates are usually white, but occasionally (maybe 1-2 in 10 poops) have a yellowish-orange tinge towards the brown half. She usually poops every day, but has never gone more than 2 days without. Has not had a fecal, but was recently dosed with Panacur anyway (see history)
• History - Has a laybin (12L*8W*12H), but has never laid. Did go through what looked like a receptive period around 4 weeks ago (both chameleons at about the same time), though. She was treated with Panacur a week ago as a preventative (as were my other two chameleons) because my tortoises had pinworms. I do wash my hands between switching enclosures and usually tend to the chameleons first, however, since they seem to have more delicate immune systems.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Homemade cage constructed of wood/steel screen. Had trouble with humidity, so two sides are solid and one more has a panel ~2 inches away.
• Lighting - Have a T8 reptisun 10.0; I know that is too strong, so it is 8 inches above the top of the cage and the basking perch is another 6ish inches below that. I have a 75w incandescent bulb for heat. The light bar running across the enclosure is a 6500k led for the plants; it does NOT pose a burn risk as it barely gets to skin temp; my heat gun reads it as 88° currently, after a few hours of use. Lights come on at 7:30 AM and go off at 7:30 PM. I do not have a dimming routine, unfortunately, and everything runs on a timer.
• Temperature - Temps drop to 65-68 at night; daytime is usually~70°F. Basking is at 83°
• Humidity - Humidity fluctuates, but usually stays ~40% during the day. Sometimes it drops as low as 30% unfortunately, which I've been trying to combat with solid sides while not restricting airflow. It goes up to 60-70% when spraying, and usually stays %70-80% at night.
• Plants - There are a few species of peperomia, transcadentia, and schlumbera. Also a Maranta, calathea, philodendron, parlor palm, rhipsalis and epiphyllum cacti (no spines), Rex begonia, spider plant, and monstera adansonii. There was a pitcher plant for a while, but I removed it as I heard they can be harmful (though the pitchers were too small to fit so much as her hand in). All soil has been replaced, plants washed, and each were owned for 3 months-several years before being introduced, to eliminate chances of systemic pesticides
• Placement - The cage is in the living room/hallway of the house (it's a small house, haha) ; not a great area, but it is quiet. I and one other person live here, and nobody is home for 7+ hours each day until recently (now we are both home all day due to quarantine). I did cover her cage the last few days to give her a break.
• Location - Madison, WI

 

[rlschwer]

Got some more pics of Bonnie; she's not as camera-shy. I should mention that the first indicator I had that something might be off was Gert acting like she would bite me; she didn't, but she never so much as threatened before

 

[Dbash44]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Gert/Bonnie is a female ambilobe panther, about 8 months old. She and her sister (separate enclosures) have been in my care for 4 months. Gert currently weighs 51g and Bonnie is 49g.
  
  
• Handling - 1-3 times/week; she doesn't seem to enjoy it, but I want her used to it for cage cleaning/weighing/health checks. I do hand feed dubia daily, however, and she has no problem taking from my fingers
  I would be weary of holding her too much. Constant stress like this might associate you with negative experiences. Whenever I've had a female be that way with me, simply doing something unrelated to her in the area helped. Also, if you go in her cage without disturbing her physically, she may learn that you aren't a threat. If you keep hand feeding her she will learn that you mean she'll get food and start to trust you a little more. Last thing you want is for her to think that she's going to be kidnapped from the safety of her home every time she sees you.
  
• Feeding - Staple is dubia. Was allowed to eat as much as she wanted until ~1.5 months ago, now down to 5-7 small-medium roaches/day. Also have ~5 medium bsfl and bbfl 2x/week, and the occasional hornworm/waxworm. I throw in 4 blue bottle flies each week so she has something to hunt; they're usually all gone by the end of the 2nd day.
  
  I personally think you're feeding her too much. Most people, including myself, would suggest feeding the amount you are every other day. So 5-7 S/M dubias every other day. Feeding her a lot while she may be gravid will cause her to produce a large clutch which can be hard on her. Also, if she gets fat, that will be very hard on her and can cause other issues. For every day you feed a hornworm or waxworm, I suggest taking away 2 or 3 dubias. Balance it out the best you can.
  
  
• Supplements - I have human-grade powdered calcium carbonate that I dust all feeders lightly with; One day each week, instead of plain calcium, I use the following: flukers calcium powder with D3 on weeks 1 and 3, Exo-terra multivitamin on week 2, and Miner-all indoor formula multivitamin on week 4.
  
  I cannot tell you for sure on this supplement schedule. I assume it's fine based off the guaranteed analysis of each of the fluker's w/d3, multi, and miner-all. Your d3 IU are not super high. Again, I've not used these supplements in this combination so someone else may not agree with me. As long as you're using the plain calcium every feeding you're not using the multi or the d3 then you should be fine.
  
  
• Watering - There is a homemade dripper set to drip 1x every 4 seconds, which lands on a Maranta leaf before falling into a catch glass. In addition, I mist the enclosure by hand before I leave (~4 AM) before lights on, and again when I get home around 3PM. There is a mister set to run ~1/2 hour before lights go off and continue to run for another 2-3 hours after.
  
  Is the misting cycles at night non-stop for that duration of time? I personally do not think you need to mist that much if you choose to mist at night. You really only need enough water per misting to cover the plants in the cage with droplets of water. Leave the heavy mistings for the day time.
  
  What's your drainage situation look like?
  
  
• Fecal Description - Seem normal, occasionally less firm if multiple hornworms are given in the same day. Urates are usually white, but occasionally (maybe 1-2 in 10 poops) have a yellowish-orange tinge towards the brown half. She usually poops every day, but has never gone more than 2 days without. Has not had a fecal, but was recently dosed with Panacur anyway (see history)
  
  When is your follow up with the vet to have the fecal matter tested?
  
  
• History - Has a laybin (12L*8W*12H), but has never laid. Did go through what looked like a receptive period around 4 weeks ago (both chameleons at about the same time), though. She was treated with Panacur a week ago as a preventative (as were my other two chameleons) because my tortoises had pinworms. I do wash my hands between switching enclosures and usually tend to the chameleons first, however, since they seem to have more delicate immune systems.
  
  With your laybin, you might consider changing the media if you notice they dig but don't lay. I have a female that's very picky about her laying medium. We can address that more later though. As long as the females seem interested in their lay bins that's good. Make sure they have plenty of privacy. You can cover the front side of the cage so she doesn't get spooked by you. Lastly, make sure the lay bins don't get water logged from all your mistings.
  

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Homemade cage constructed of wood/steel screen. Had trouble with humidity, so two sides are solid and one more has a panel ~2 inches away.
  
  In my experience, as long as theres part of one side open to airflow and the top is open to airflow it is fine.
  What size are the enclosures?
  
• Lighting - Have a T8 reptisun 10.0; I know that is too strong, so it is 8 inches above the top of the cage and the basking perch is another 6ish inches below that. I have a 75w incandescent bulb for heat. The light bar running across the enclosure is a 6500k led for the plants; it does NOT pose a burn risk as it barely gets to skin temp; my heat gun reads it as 88° currently, after a few hours of use. Lights come on at 7:30 AM and go off at 7:30 PM. I do not have a dimming routine, unfortunately, and everything runs on a timer.
  
  I don't think the 10.0 is too much. In fact, t8 bulbs aren't really that efficient with projecting UVB (better than CFB's tho). I would look into getting a t5 fixture in the future.
  So I use 5.0 t8's for baby chameleons. I get a UVI reading of just above 1.5 around an inch and a half down in their enclosures. Fixture is right on top of the screens. With that in mind I would say that you're probably not providing enough UVB. D3 is extraordinarily important for females to produce properly calcified eggs. You want at least 3 uvi for them. Since your dietary d3 supplementation is quite low, you want to be sure that your chams are getting enough d3 from the lights. Also, how old are the bulbs? If they've been used for some time now then you're going to have even less UVI than if it were new. I would lower the lights a bit if possible.
  Here's something you can use for reference. The bulb you're using is weaker than the 12% t8 in the picture below. Source: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/
  
  
  

Here's a video that @Gingero made so you can see how poor the range of UVI is with the t8's

• Temperature - Temps drop to 65-68 at night; daytime is usually~70°F. Basking is at 83°
  
  Seems fine to me. Do you notice your girls basking during the day? If so for how long?
  
  
  
• Humidity - Humidity fluctuates, but usually stays ~40% during the day. Sometimes it drops as low as 30% unfortunately, which I've been trying to combat with solid sides while not restricting airflow. It goes up to 60-70% when spraying, and usually stays %70-80% at night.
  
  You might consider using a fogger at night. That's a contraversial topic, so use your own discretion and do your research if that's something you're interested in. If not, then keep misting, but refer to what I said about misting above. You might have better luck with humidity if you cover more of the enclosure.
  
  
• Plants - There are a few species of peperomia, transcadentia, and schlumbera. Also a Maranta, calathea, philodendron, parlor palm, rhipsalis and epiphyllum cacti (no spines), Rex begonia, spider plant, and monstera adansonii. There was a pitcher plant for a while, but I removed it as I heard they can be harmful (though the pitchers were too small to fit so much as her hand in). All soil has been replaced, plants washed, and each were owned for 3 months-several years before being introduced, to eliminate chances of systemic pesticides
  
  How are these placed in the enclosure? Can you reply with pics of the enclosure? You can set them up in a way to help create humidity pockets.
  
  
• Placement - The cage is in the living room/hallway of the house (it's a small house, haha) ; not a great area, but it is quiet. I and one other person live here, and nobody is home for 7+ hours each day until recently (now we are both home all day due to quarantine). I did cover her cage the last few days to give her a break.
  
  Is this the most ideal spot for them in the house? You might have better luck putting them in a small room to fight climate less. Are the cages over an ac vent or heat vent? Any windows next to them? Trying to help with humidity here. I know it's cold there right now so you're fighting rough Madison climates
  
  
• Location - Madison, WI

 

[Dbash44]

@rlschwer

Make sure you either quote my message or tag me in your responses so I get a notification, please. I won't know you replied if you don't do that.

 

[Dbash44]

Also, your cham walking into the screen is not normal behavior. Does she do this often? Does she roam frequently? She might be looking for a place to lay.

In one pic she looks plump as if she may be gravid, but the other ones it’s hard to tell since she’s elongating her body. Any chance you can get more pics?

 

[rlschwer]

@Dbash44

Thank you for your advice! I will adjust the light down. Here's a few more pics of Bonnie and her enclosure. The mister only runs for ~2-3 hours each night, things get damp but not stopping wet. I have things arranges so the dripper and runoff go into some of the plants; the fittonia and calathea like the constant moisture. Occasionally, the bottom tray will get small patches of standing water, which I wipe out. Bonnie usually basks for the first hour after lights go on, then intermittently throughout the day.

 

[rlschwer]

I've got a few more pics of Gert. She has always climbed on the screen; usually she goes all the way upside down, hangs by her back feet, and eats out of her feeder. Is that bad? She used to have more plants in the top half of the enclosure hanging down, but started hanging out on the inside of the door. I took a few out thinking she may have felt crowded. Each of the girls has a 2l*2w*3h cage. Also, I do have a T5, I mixed it up with the T8 I have on my snails

 

[rlschwer]

Ignore her mouth being open, I fed her a roach ?

 

[Dbash44]

@Dbash44

Thank you for your advice! I will adjust the light down. Here's a few more pics of Bonnie and her enclosure. The mister only runs for ~2-3 hours each night, things get damp but not stopping wet. I have things arranges so the dripper and runoff go into some of the plants; the fittonia and calathea like the constant moisture. Occasionally, the bottom tray will get small patches of standing water, which I wipe out. Bonnie usually basks for the first hour after lights go on, then intermittently throughout the day.

Two to three hours intermittently?

As long as you are ritualistic about getting the water out then you are ok with drainage. I have not found that ideal in my experience and I suggest finding a better method of getting the water out of the cage. You're not wrong, but it might be less of a pain if you use a different method.

Here's a video if you want some ideas.

I've got a few more pics of Gert. She has always climbed on the screen; usually she goes all the way upside down, hangs by her back feet, and eats out of her feeder. Is that bad? She used to have more plants in the top half of the enclosure hanging down, but started hanging out on the inside of the door. I took a few out thinking she may have felt crowded. Each of the girls has a 2l*2w*3h cage. Also, I do have a T5, I mixed it up with the T8 I have on my snails

If you have a t5 10.0 you will need to adjust it differently than what I described for the t8. Refer to the diagram and video from above. I use the 12% arcadia t5 and have it above my enclosure roughly about what that diagram above states. I can give you exact measurements, but I have to measure first. Yours will be similar because I'm using the zoo med hood as well. Either way, if you are a little over 3 UVI you should be ok. It's believed that chameleons can regulate their UVB intake from lights but not supplements. Once your girls get enough uvb they'll know and not hang out under the uvb lamp at that point.

I mean you're cham shouldn't be walking on the screen at all. Theres a plethora of reasons why she might be. I would like to assume part of that may be from either wanting a bit more heat, uvb or isn't content with her cage set up. I'll link a few things so you can read about it. It's good that you're paying attention. Now you just got to figure out what your ladies want.

Check this link out to read about multiple chameleon behaviors: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-behavior/

Here's one specifically addressing screen walking: https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-behavior-screen-walking-or-glass-pawing/


When looking at your set ups I personally think you could be more generous with the amount of branches. I would put A LOT more, even if you think it's too many. As long as there's not too tight of spaces you should be fine. There's a lot of unused space in your cages that you should fill somehow. Give your ladies some options with where they want to be in the cage and where they want to be as far as thermoregulation and uvb intake. If your lights are set up right, you should have gradients for each of those. There might be a more preferred spot that your cham would like to go and you should give that to them. Also, giving them more branches will give them more places to perch and feed from.

Also, having plants on the bottom isn't doing much for your chams nor is having very little branches around the ones on the middle shelf IMHO. Chams rarely should be on the floor where a lot of your plants are. I think you'd be better off getting them near the middle of the cage. This way, you can create a humidity pocket in the center of your cage. In my experience, this method has also helped retain some heat. Use some more branches, ziptie some empty plastic pots between the branches (the cheap ones that usually come with the plants) and then put the potted plants in the empty ones. This makes it easy to swap the potted plants out if need be. You'll also provide more hiding places for your girls this way. They seem a bit spooked by you still so I believe they'd appreciate the hiding places.

If you've made your own cages I'm assuming you have the aptitude to use wood, screws and a drill. If you cant hang branches from the screen or dont feel comfortable doing so, then put some wood braces on the sides of the cages and attach the branches to the braces. If you create braces on the sides of the cage you can in turn add more weight than if mounting branches to the screen. Either way I personally suggest more branches for the reasons I mentioned above. You can cut some off a tree if you want. If you want to disinfect you can either boil or bake for a few hours at 250 degrees F.

Here's some pictures to give you an example of how what I'm trying to explain with mounting pots on the branches:

Lastly, I would suggest looking at some "official enclosure threads" on the forums. Those have always helped give me ideas and might do the same for you.

 

[rlschwer]

@Dbash44
I can make some changes; I'm planning on switching out the divider between the girls' cages, so that'll be an opportune time to implement a lot of your suggestions. I'm wary of switch things up right now, though- wouldn't it be better to wait until both have laid, so I don't freak them out?
Thanks for all your help!