Georges vets appointment

[Solskin0]

Today I took George to the vets as he's been suffering from a few different ailments which I detailed in a previous thread. He's been quite weak in his back legs, with small lesion like marks appearing on his knees. He has also gradually lost his appetite over the period of about a week. He will now eat silkworms, calci worms and wax worms but will refuse locusts and crickets.

The vet suspects a Vitamin A deficiency but is also doing a fecal exam to rule out parasites. There are no signs of MBD. We will receive the fecal results over the next 2 days and have a follow up appointment in 2 weeks.

We have been prescribed the below and I was just wondering if anyone else has similar experience and any suggestions?

Baytril 2.5% antibiotic, 0.05mg to be given once a day, critical care formula (protein concentrate), a couple of drops to be given 3 times a day to build up the mass he's lost since being sick and give him some strength and ACE-high (A, C & E vitamin supplement) to be given every 3 days.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - blue bar ambi love Panther, almost 3 years old, with me since 8 weeks. He's in a 4ftx3ftx2ft fully screen cage with drainage so no sitting water.
• Handling - a couple of times a week
• Feeding - 3-4 decent sized locusts a day, dusted with calcium daily, calcium with d3 every 2 weeks and vitamins every 2 weeks. Gut loaded with green Veg. Silkworms and calci worms. His appetite has faded over the past 2 weeks and he will now only accept worms.
• Watering - Exo terra monsoon mister, 60 seconds every 2 hours 9am-7pm, big dripper for drinking water. George is a good drinker and not at all shy! I see him drinking daily.
• Fecal Description - Healthy white unrates and decent sized feces.

 

[Carlton]

Hmm, just playing devil's advocate here...this seems like a lot of meds being given to a cham who is still eating (but may have decided to pickier about it), is drinking, has no MBD, good urates and feces. A cham not eating as much for a week isn't in serious trouble. Could you post a pic of these lesions? Any eye problems? Why does the vet think its a vit A deficiency? Be careful...its easy to overdose this one. Why the antibiotic? Vets often "shotgun" with Baytril without doing any sensitivity cultures to isolate specific bacteria. Baytril is stressful as is force feeding anything. Baytril is also hard on kidneys so you don't want to give it unless it is really indicated. Consider that the "lesions" could be fungal, thermal burns, or viral, and Baytril won't be effective for any of those.

 

[Solskin0]

Hi, I think the vets main concern was the weakness in George's back legs. He has had some puffyness around his eyes and some.. Goo (that's the only word I could think of!) came out of one of them yesterday. George is refusing to grip anything with his back legs properly, though he is still moving around he hangs them from branches and doesn't lift himself as high as before. He also hasn't she's properly this year and has a lot of patchy dry shed on his head, legs and tail.

I was a bit overwhelmed with the amount of meds prescribed, so thanks replying, I've never had to give so many meds to one Cham before. Luckily George is very relaxed and took the first meds very well, though I would not like to keep administering if it's not required, certainly if the amount suggested is too much. I've attached some photos.

 

[Carlton]

Has the humidity level in his room changed? How do you measure it? I know you have an auto mister, but if the room is dry he may be losing ground between opportunities to drink. If he's drinking a lot every day he might be thirstier than you realize. Do you see him rubbing his eyes a lot? Patchy shedding and eye problems can be triggered by dry conditions. However, as chams age they tend to shed more slowly and in patches than they did as juveniles. I would also wonder if he's preferring the softer bodied insects now maybe he likes the moisture content. Eye discharges could be vit A related (but I haven't had to deal with this so other forum members who have can hopefully chime in).

 

[Solskin0]

We have actually recently moved house, our new house is much bigger and he's in a much airier room than previously. His humidity levels don't seem to have taken a massive hit but they do fluctuate more between mists. He wasn't showing most of these symptoms for the first couple of months after the move but the shed issue has been present since before the move.

He doesn't seem dehydrated, he still has healthy bulgy eyes and his urates are pearly white. Could an overall humidity problem lead to these symptoms while he's keeping hydrated by drinking from his dripper?

Living in the UK humidity levels are a bit difficult to keep at a constant, due to our weather which can change like the flick of a switch! Would you suggest that he needs more misting than 60 seconds every 2 hours? I ensure that his dripper runs for most of the day.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

What vitamin supplement are you using? Does it contain preformed A? What UVB source are you using? I'm having trouble seeing "lesions", and I agree that Baytril is a premature preemptive shot in the dark and I'd hold off, and pilot key request a culture and sensitivity for any infection that is presumed and if it's just a hopeful preventative....there's a reason doctors don't right antibiotic prescriptions with a phone call and report of the sniffles. Treating to "cover your bases" is a recipe for resistance to antibiotics and it's stressful to the animal. Infection isn't your problem and if it is, it needs a name and the correct medication. This is common practice, even among "good" vets, but it's not a great approach and essentially means "I'm not sure what's wrong, but take this, just in case".

If your supplements have been the same, I find it hard to believe, after 3 years, a Vitamin A deficiency would arise. It is my opinion that chameleons do need preformed A given, but with a light hand. If you have been using a multivitamin without preformed A, the deficiency should have manifested before now, and since overdoing A causes many of the same symptoms, that would make more sense, but you'd likely have had that issue before now, also and see some throat swelling ( gullar edema ).

Could a fall have injured the chameleon? I'm perplexed about the back leg issues. I haven't read your thread describing his symptoms. I'd
Only give those vitamins once a week, max, none of the protein junk, as it's never made for insectivores and contains potentially harmful animal sources of protein, plus the animal is eating. I'm not a vet. I was a vet tech and I did deal with quite a few reptile ailments, but I'd seek the advice of one of the forum vets and make sure they read your symptoms thread and this one, outlining the concerns of what the last vet suggested. Good luck!

 

[Solskin0]

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it! I've not had issues like this with chams before, I've rescued poor health chameleons a number of times with MBD and the like, this is a new one for me!!

I don't remember off hand the brand of his multivits, I'll check when I get in but yes they do have Vit A! I use an Exo terra 5.0 tube light which was replaced only 2 months ago, I generally make sure to replace every 6-9 months.

Sorry for the poor photographs, I also think lesions was a strong word, the marks are more like indented sores in his skin? They started off very dark and spread. At first I presumed burns because I'd restyled his cage since moving but after lowering his basking spot and reducing bulb wattage of the basking lamp he developed a mark on his other knee and also his side. Perhaps from the poor quality of his shed? The vet wasn't sure but thought that they may have been caused from or resulted in an infection, that may then have caused the leg weakness, so prescribed the baytril.

I also informed the vet that I'd been supplied a poor batch of locust (I order food online to be delivered) which all died within days of arriving. I'd never had this problem with the supplier before but was a bit shocked! Georges symptoms began shortly after that but may have been coincedence, hopefully the fecal will show if there's anything wrong intestinally! Unfortunately I didn't get the results today, fingers crossed they come in tomorrow and I'll have a clearer idea. Would you suggest holding off administering the medication until the results come back?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I would hold off, yes.

 

[Solskin0]

I've just had the call from the vets, his fecal came back negative for parasites, worms and infections.

George seems a bit more perky these past 2 days, although still weak with his back legs, he's certainly getting around his cage a bit better.

As he's refusing hard bodied foods, are silkworms the best thing to feed as a staple for the moment? Any other suggestions? I also have calci worms and wax worms, but I believe they're no good as a staple diet?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Butterworms would be great, as a calcium and fat boost, but silks as a staple, for now will be fine. Offer the calci worms, also. I'm wondering if your chameleon had a fall and the marks on the legs are bruises or rub marks from either the fall or them being more prone to drag/bump into things, due to weakness.

I'd avoid the multivitamin liquid, Baytril, and carnivore diet, from the vet, as none of them seem like a remedy for what's happening and could actually cause harm. If you want to try the vitamin liquid, offer 1/3 the dose, one a week, just to see, but it's unlikely your chameleon took 3 years to develop a vitamin imbalance, if your supplements are the same and contain Vitamin A, plus you're not inexperienced and have done well with other chameleons.

 

[Solskin0]

Thanks a lot, I thought of ordering butter worms too so I'll make sure to get some of those!
I've certainly not seen him take a fall but as I work 9-5 it's not beyond possible! I'll keep an eye on him, I'm holding off with the meds unless he deteriorates and then we'll be going back to the vets.

Thanks for all your help