Genuine Question About Cross Breeding

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
She actually hasn’t laid a clutch yet. I’ve been doing research on the whole process and set ups for months ( this has been in my head months of debating on doing this ) but no I did not know that. That’s why I come here to
Learn more and continue to do my research.

I figured around that price. I want to be honest and fair and I would never lie or try and screw people by putting them at a crazy price. Depending on how this all
Pans out, I may or may not ever breed again. If it works out well for me, I will be breeding pure locales next time.
Well this is iffy then.. How old is she?

Most will not breed a female until they have laid their first clutch. This way they know they are healthy and laying calcified eggs without issue. Also this allows them to gauge clutch size. Since size is directly linked to basking temps and food intake. So knowing if they are going to lay 15 vs 45 eggs is important. Because you have to provide separate enclosures for the babies once they get to the 4 week mark. Can be very very expensive if you end up with a huge clutch. Not to mention trying to find homes for them all once they reach 3 months of age. They lay eggs every 120 days roughly... So for a female that has been bred this can end up being a ton of babies to take on. Being as how your looking at roughly 8-9 months of incubation.
 

Acottrelll

Member
Well this is iffy then.. How old is she?

Most will not breed a female until they have laid their first clutch. This way they know they are healthy and laying calcified eggs without issue. Also this allows them to gauge clutch size. Since size is directly linked to basking temps and food intake. So knowing if they are going to lay 15 vs 45 eggs is important. Because you have to provide separate enclosures for the babies once they get to the 4 week mark. Can be very very expensive if you end up with a huge clutch. Not to mention trying to find homes for them all once they reach 3 months of age. They lay eggs every 120 days roughly... So for a female that has been bred this can end up being a ton of babies to take on. Being as how your looking at roughly 8-9 months of incubation.
Oh she’s about 8 months now. I did not
Know that so thank you for that information in the future. I do know the more you feed females they will tend to lay big clutches ( my very first Cham was a female veiled and I was guilty of over feeding) and I was shocked at how many eggs she laid. But I’m good with her food intake not too much not to little. I am prepared to pay the price set up wise and spend the money. I guess I will just have to wait and see what I am dealing with
 

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
Cross breeding is always a hot button issue as it has two sides.
1. Random corss breeding, i.e. mutts as mentioned we now end up with impure lines. This can lead to various issues.
2. Done with an intended goal. The laberadoodle is accepted as a breed only when it has proper mixing of linage. It is not just mating two dogs. All of our domestic animals come from this. Canaries don't even exist in the wild. They are a man made creation refined over thousand years.

So expressing the goal is important. It your case it gets tricky. You are honest, but is somebody buys from you then breds that to a "pure" of whatever side, then sells those as pure. We now have a contaminated linage. This is where the problems occur. Where as dogs and some other have well defined and registered breeding, Chameleons and the like are left to the integrity of sellers.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Oh she’s about 8 months now. I did not
Know that so thank you for that information in the future. I do know the more you feed females they will tend to lay big clutches ( my very first Cham was a female veiled and I was guilty of over feeding) and I was shocked at how many eggs she laid. But I’m good with her food intake not too much not to little. I am prepared to pay the price set up wise and spend the money. I guess I will just have to wait and see what I am dealing with
There are some threads on breeding and incubating eggs. Use the search function in the form to find them. There might be podcasts as well on https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/ Look through the archives.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks 😊 I’m excited. Plus watching everything go down was so amazing and fascinating to me. It amazes me how large the males are compared to the females when it’s put in perspective like this lol
Just a question but are you running T5HO UVB lighting or the compact screw in UVB bulbs?
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Right now I have the compact screw in. I will be purchasing the T5 lighting shortly
That really should be an asap purchase. MBD is not visible when it starts in chams. By the time it shows it is permanently disfiguring and advanced. For females this is especially dangerous having weak bones when they have to try to lay a clutch.

They both need T5HO fixtures that run the width of their enclosures and 5.0 or 6% uvb bulbs. These would sit on the top of the cage and basking branch below it would be 9 inches away for the correct UVI level.

What are you using for supplementation and what is your schedule using them? What feeders are you giving and what do you use for gutload?
 

Andy1987

Member
And what are the benefits
Well the obviously one would
Be someone who’s potentially breeding for specific colours, like I said before it’s context, if that’s important to someone to breed a specific colour that’s would be a benefit to cross breeding locales , other than that I highly doubt without more research you could say they were any other than maybe size as some locales do grow bigger than others I’ve read somewhere , but like I said benefits are in context to those who find them important
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Well the obviously one would
Be someone who’s potentially breeding for specific colours, like I said before it’s context, if that’s important to someone to breed a specific colour that’s would be a benefit to cross breeding locales , other than that I highly doubt without more research you could say they were any other than maybe size as some locales do grow bigger than others I’ve read somewhere , but like I said benefits are in context to those who find them important
It comes down to money or lack of understanding. All to try to create the better color and pattern. Or when people don't have the same local in male and female and decide what the heck let me give this a try.

But your not getting a "better" Panther when you do this. Your just getting a mixed local. While they can be stunning and different this does not make it better. And it is not genetically superior to a pure bred.

If Madagascar closes its borders to export of Panthers then no new pure blood lines are exported. And we are left with a ton of crosses.
To me it is actually very sad that we can't just be impressed by what nature gives us. Humans have to tweak it to make it what they want it to be.
 

Andy1987

Member
It comes down to money or lack of understanding. All to try to create the better color and pattern. Or when people don't have the same local in male and female and decide what the heck let me give this a try.

But your not getting a "better" Panther when you do this. Your just getting a mixed local. While they can be stunning and different this does not make it better. And it is not genetically superior to a pure bred.

If Madagascar closes its borders to export of Panthers then no new pure blood lines are exported. And we are left with a ton of crosses.
To me it is actually very sad that we can't just be impressed by what nature gives us. Humans have to tweak it to make it what they want it to be.
I agree entirely, I see both sides of the coin to this argument and like I said it’s all
Down to what’s important in context to the person doing it, if someone finds it important to produce a specific colour, that’s there right to deem that important to them and if that’s what they want to do they can aslong as there upfront with what they are and they don’t contaminate breeders projects by selling as purebreds
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Because female Panther chameleons are not easy to identify as one species or another I'm sure that there have been many cross feedings of captive Panther chameleons over the years. I doubt that there are many pure lines anymore.

The lines would matter if you were going to breed...but
I think the main concerns of buying a panther as a pet (not for breeding) are health, color, sex.

If they breed/meet in the wild naturally (without human intervention) and then reproduce successfully, that, IMHO, is nature and prove that are they the same species or too close enough genetically.

One more thought on it...if panther chameleons are 11 different species as they have mentioned lately, can all of them cross breed or are some of them too far apart in lines to have it work. If they are not close enough, I'm wondering if they can still produce weak babies or "mules"?

If you purposely cross them in captivity then you need to be honest about it so the buyer knows what they are getting.

Just my 2 nickels worth...we don't have pennies anymore in Canada so I can't give my 2 cents worth!

You might be interested in this...
https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/threads/hybridization-of-chameleon-species.427365/

"Other research has shown that panther chameleons from different geographic origins sometimes have low reproductive success when crossbred"...
https://news.mongabay.com/2015/05/u...l-chameleon-species-discovered-in-madagascar/

You might like to read this one too...
https://www.cnet.com/news/11-kinds-of-chameleon-found-masquerading-as-a-single-species/
 
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Acottrelll

Member
Because female Panther chameleons are not easy to identify as one species or another I'm sure that there have been many cross feedings of captive Panther chameleons over the years. I doubt that there are many pure lines anymore.

The lines would matter if you were going to breed...but
I think the main concerns of buying a panther as a pet (not for breeding) are health, color, sex.

If they breed/meet in the wild naturally (without human intervention) and then reproduce successfully, that, IMHO, is nature and prove that are they the same species or too close enough genetically.

One more thought on it...if panther chameleons are 11 different species as they have mentioned lately, can all of them cross breed or are some of them too far apart in lines to have it work. If they are not close enough, I'm wondering if they can still produce weak babies or "mules"?

If you purposely cross them in captivity then you need to be honest about it so the buyer knows what they are getting.

Just my 2 nickels worth...we don't have pennies anymore in Canada so I can't give my 2 cents worth!

You might be interested in this...
https://www.reptileforums.co.uk/threads/hybridization-of-chameleon-species.427365/

"Other research has shown that panther chameleons from different geographic origins sometimes have low reproductive success when crossbred"...
https://news.mongabay.com/2015/05/u...l-chameleon-species-discovered-in-madagascar/

You might like to read this one too...
https://www.cnet.com/news/11-kinds-of-chameleon-found-masquerading-as-a-single-species/
Thank you for all that information! I will check the links out. I’m also in Canada, lol
 
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