FYI Fecal's

[dectr6]

I don't know how many of you know this, but you don't have to take your cham to a specialist to just check his poop for parasites. Most regular vets will do this at a minimal charge. Anything else you'll need the herp vet. My herp vet won't even do a fecal without seeing the cham also. I've been using my dog's vet for fecal's ever since. Some of our more knowledgeable members should write a thread on how to check fecal's ourselves. I have a microscope but don't know what I'm looking for. Thanks, David

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

We're no experts, but there are a few here on the forum. Just thought I'd write and share our experience. We've been using our own microscope along with the book Understanding Reptile Parasites, by Rober Kingenberg, as a guide. That and the help of someone on the forum. The guide has photos of the parasites you're likely to see (if there are any), and the magnification setting, so you know what size you would be looking for. This helps differentiate between the real parasites and pseudoparasites and "artifacts" (as they're called). In a way it's really kind of fun and interesting to do your own cham fecals. We wonder how we ever got by without it. It's nice to have confirmation that a cham is "clean", and it's also nice to know exactly what is wrong, and tracking whether the medicine is working, when a cham is not "clean". It has saved us bundles.

On another note, the microscope also helped us confirm the sex of our Meller's cham. He produced something that looked like smegma, but someone said it could have been urate or stool mucus (this IS a gross hobby, isn't it?). Meller's often pass alot of mucus with their stools. Anyway, it was a fresh sample, so we slid the substance under the microscope, and, behold, there were schools of little sperm swimming around in there.

We also did a fecal on our dubias. I don't think I would've taken them to the vet for an exam and fecal . So, sometimes having the microscope allows you to do things you otherwise could not have done.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Here's a question...(keep in mind I know very little about checking a reptilian fecal sample).
My vet (member of the Assoc. of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians for many years) does a three part test on the cham poop, that he does not do for cats and dogs.
Is a dog/cat vet giving you good result information?
I don't really know...just tossing it out there for discussion.

-Brad

 

[Vegas Chad]

We're no experts, but there are a few here on the forum. Just thought I'd write and share our experience. We've been using our own microscope along with the book Understanding Reptile Parasites, by Rober Kingenberg, as a guide. That and the help of someone on the forum. The guide has photos of the parasites you're likely to see (if there are any), and the magnification setting, so you know what size you would be looking for. This helps differentiate between the real parasites and pseudoparasites and "artifacts" (as they're called). In a way it's really kind of fun and interesting to do your own cham fecals. We wonder how we ever got by without it. It's nice to have confirmation that a cham is "clean", and it's also nice to know exactly what is wrong, and tracking whether the medicine is working, when a cham is not "clean". It has saved us bundles.

On another note, the microscope also helped us confirm the sex of our Meller's cham. He produced something that looked like smegma, but someone said it could have been urate or stool mucus (this IS a gross hobby, isn't it?). Meller's often pass alot of mucus with their stools. Anyway, it was a fresh sample, so we slid the substance under the microscope, and, behold, there were schools of little sperm swimming around in there.

We also did a fecal on our dubias. I don't think I would've taken them to the vet for an exam and fecal . So, sometimes having the microscope allows you to do things you otherwise could not have done.

That sounds like a really good idea… I have many many animals and I would like to do mass checks on them all at one time, but the cost of a $20 check per animal is usually cost prohibitive for me right now. How much did your scope cost yea?
Or, dose anybody know of a vet that would do a large amount of checks for a flat price if I were to bag and mail the poo? LoL… Mail’n poo… haha. “Sir, anything liquid, perishable or hazardous?” Ummmm well, Its Reptile poop…

 

[dectr6]

Have you tried Poops r us?

 

[dectr6]

Kidding aside...I learned this from a long time herp breeder that told me any good vet would be able to recognize something that's not supposed to be there. He always had a regular vet do his fecals and never had a problem. Chad, I don't know how much a good microscope costs... I inherited mine from a retired doctor. I just don't know how to do the fecals. I'll ask my vet in the next few days about bulk pricing. That's funny...bulk priced poop. I've got to take a sample in the next few days.David

 

[dodolah]

wahahaha..

Mailing a bag of poo?!
Anyway, I just visited Mr Weldon's house to pickup a cage and he show me the process of fecal flotation check.

by no mean, i am suggesting you guys to become a vet for the day..
I say leave these stuffs to the pro.

But basically you put your poo (not the urate) in a small plastic tube container (i forgot the name) and then pour some silver nitrate solutions (I believe i got the name correct) all the way to the top. then, you grind the poo real well.

Without going too much into detail, basically the silver nitrate cause the parasites and the eggs float to the top among other things.

Let it simmer for 10 to 15 minutes (sorry for sounding like a cooking show)
after 10 to 15 minutes pass, grab a slide and put it on top of the tube and some of the poo particles will stick to the slide.

and put it in microscope and meticulously search for signs of parasitic organisms.

Hope that helps..
Again, i think Dave will know about this better than me.

 

[AncientCritters]

Id like to know what type of microscope to buy. This is something Ive wanted to learn for sometime. I think nows the time. Any info would help out tons.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Link is to a thread w/ some info on Dave's microscope (and by some I mean hardly any.....but maybe he'll get on here and tell you more)
I do think I remember him saying at one point that 400x magnification was sufficient.
There were some on e-bay awhile back...I would check there.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/parasite-photo-2104/

-Brad

 

[Vegas Chad]

yea or a how to.. step by step with pictures type thing.

 

[AncientCritters]

Lets get this to the top again and hope someone who knows something posts some info.

 

[dectr6]

Almost all of the old time doc's had microscopes. They were usually very heavy duty, high quality scopes. The one I have has ziess optics and probably is fifty years old and weighs about fifteen pounds. Looks ancient and archaic but has very good optics which is the main thing. Should be some outlet for them somewhere. Maybe ebay.

 

[Jam]

The problem with Zinc Sulfate is that it's technically a heavy metal and SHOULD be picked up by a biohazardous waste company, not just dumped down your drain/in the trash. What works equally as well ... and is VERY cheap, easy to make and is NOT hazardous is a saturated sucrose (i.e. table sugar) solution.

Sucrose Solution (specific gravity = 1.27)
Sucrose (Granulated Table Sugar) 1,500 grams
Distilled Water 1,250 ml
Heat the solution while stirring constantly to dissolve the sucrose. Cool to room temperature

keep in mind that this stuff grows fugi like crazy if given the opportunity so I'd recommend keeping it in the refrigerator and tossing it is you notice any "floaties"

if anyone is interested I can post our saturated sucrose fecal float protocol or send it to you personally.

While I would never discourage anyone from learning more and getting INTO this sort of thing I would also caution people that not only are some "pseudoparasites" difficult to distinguish from real parasites, but some parasites are rather difficult to recognize ... even with a good book (Georgi's parasitology for veterinarians is my favorite ... they just came out with a new addition as well) until someone sits down and goes through it with you. Often times even the best books just aren't the same as real life. If your cham is acting sick and you think he's floating negative I'd highly recommend getting a second opinion from a vet.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Lets get this to the top again and hope someone who knows something posts some info.

Ha! That post is awesome.
I really have nothing to say, except that AncientCritters made me laugh
Starting to get some good stuff tho....the sucrose float solution is good info.

-Brad

 

[AncientCritters]

Ha! That post is awesome.
I really have nothing to say, except that AncientCritters made me laugh
Starting to get some good stuff tho....the sucrose float solution is good info.

-Brad

Hope I didnt offend anyone by my post. I just got real excited thinking that I could learn how to do this by myself. With all the chameleons and turtles/tortoises I have, learning this would be great. I just didnt want this thread to be forgotten about without getting all the info I can from it.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Hope I didnt offend anyone by my post. I just got real excited thinking that I could learn how to do this by myself. With all the chameleons and turtles/tortoises I have, learning this would be great. I just didnt want this thread to be forgotten about without getting all the info I can from it.

My husband and I are really just getting into this, so are not experts by any means. Anyway, we should have some photos and diary of fecal activities to post after tonight, which may be helpful to some.

We just got in a delivery of 7 wild caught chams and will be doing more fecals this evening. I will take photos and post them with a step by step description, probably tomorrow.

My husband does the fecals. (I do the collecting.) Our microscope cost over $300 (I think). But, with the number of chams we have, and the "rescues" and WC chams we've purchased, the microscope has probably already paid for itself. We tried craigslist and university classifieds to buy a good used one, but there was nothing available in our area at the time. I will ask my husband and let you know where he ordered the microscope from.

Our microscope hooks up to the computer, so we view the slides on the monitor. We can save photos of the results, and also videotape moving organisms. We use a parasite book, but we put a bunch of photos on a little drive and took it to the vet on Saturday and sat down with him at his computer and he taught us a few additional things. He did that in conjunction with an exam appointment and so it cost us nothing extra for the lesson and advice. Just another idea of what you can do when you have your own. It's definitely not a total DIY project, by any means. We've had a lot of ongoing help from Dave Weldon and others along the way.

With the floats we start at 100x to get an overall view of things. Then bring it down to 400x or greater. Most of our viewing is done at 400x. The sperm video we did of the Melleri Smegma was at 1000x or 2500x.

Here's one reason why we wanted a microscope with camera and computer hookup:
If you have a cham with parasites, and begin treating him, it is nice to do a series of photos of the slides, over a several week period. At 100x the photo gives you a good idea of density of a particular parasite. By comparing the initial photo, to others over the period of treatment, you can determine if the parasites are disappearing, or if the population is at least decreasing by determining how many you see on a 100x view of the slide. This is especially relevant with treatment-resistant parasites such as coccidia, wherein if you can determine that the treatment is not working after 2-4 weeks, it is time to try a different method. Coccidia, of course, are not eradicated by medication. The treatment just hinders their ability to divide, and the cham's immune system has to do the rest. Our male veiled Wolfgang, who was a rescue, has been successfully treated for coccidia. The treatment can cause anorexia, and so we had to force-feed him 3 times to keep his immune system strong.

The photos saved on the computer also give you a clear record of each of your animals fecal history, for future reference.

We haven't done smears yet, but they will show you things the fecal float won't. So we plan to start those, perhaps tonight. I think it is possible to float and smear on the same slide.

And, yes, definitely don't use fecal results as a single determining factor in your cham's health. They can still get bacterial or viral infections, and mineral/vitamin issues, and stress issues, and reproductive issues, etc.

We have a beautiful panther morph from the Kammers, named Pegasus, that changed behavior last week. His fecals were fine. But he was slow and a little listless, though still eating. Friday night I held him up to my ear to hear his breathing and thought I heard a slight clicking sound. When, Satuday morning, he was still asleep hours after the others were awake, and then sat in a weird awkward position for a few hours, we took him to the vet with a possible URI. We should get the results of the bloodwork and culture today. I will post that as well. Bloodwork always interests me, because it can tell you so much about whether you're doing your job feeder-wise. The vet felt Pegasus appeared healthy, but put him on antibiotics just in case.

(Sometimes chams will make that little clicking sound just because they don't want to be picked up. And, sometimes male chams become "lovesick" and act listless and go off their feed for a few days. Especially if they see a female, which he had. But still, we don't like to take chances.) Vet bill: about $248 (mostly because I requested a culture and complete bloodwork). Free parasite lesson from the Vet: worth a bundle more.

 

[AncientCritters]

My husband and I are really just getting into this, so are not experts by any means. Anyway, we should have some photos and diary of fecal activities to post after tonight, which may be helpful to some.

We just got in a delivery of 7 wild caught chams and will be doing more fecals this evening. I will take photos and post them with a step by step description, probably tomorrow.

My husband does the fecals. (I do the collecting.) Our microscope cost over $300 (I think). But, with the number of chams we have, and the "rescues" and WC chams we've purchased, the microscope has probably already paid for itself. We tried craigslist and university classifieds to buy a good used one, but there was nothing available in our area at the time. I will ask my husband and let you know where he ordered the microscope from.

Our microscope hooks up to the computer, so we view the slides on the monitor. We can save photos of the results, and also videotape moving organisms. We use a parasite book, but we put a bunch of photos on a little drive and took it to the vet on Saturday and sat down with him at his computer and he taught us a few additional things. He did that in conjunction with an exam appointment and so it cost us nothing extra for the lesson and advice. Just another idea of what you can do when you have your own. It's definitely not a total DIY project, by any means. We've had a lot of ongoing help from Dave Weldon and others along the way.

With the floats we start at 100x to get an overall view of things. Then bring it down to 400x or greater. Most of our viewing is done at 400x. The sperm video we did of the Melleri Smegma was at 1000x or 2500x.

Here's one reason why we wanted a microscope with camera and computer hookup:
If you have a cham with parasites, and begin treating him, it is nice to do a series of photos of the slides, over a several week period. At 100x the photo gives you a good idea of density of a particular parasite. By comparing the initial photo, to others over the period of treatment, you can determine if the parasites are disappearing, or if the population is at least decreasing by determining how many you see on a 100x view of the slide. This is especially relevant with treatment-resistant parasites such as coccidia, wherein if you can determine that the treatment is not working after 2-4 weeks, it is time to try a different method. Coccidia, of course, are not eradicated by medication. The treatment just hinders their ability to divide, and the cham's immune system has to do the rest. Our male veiled Wolfgang, who was a rescue, has been successfully treated for coccidia. The treatment can cause anorexia, and so we had to force-feed him 3 times to keep his immune system strong.

The photos saved on the computer also give you a clear record of each of your animals fecal history, for future reference.

We haven't done smears yet, but they will show you things the fecal float won't. So we plan to start those, perhaps tonight. I think it is possible to float and smear on the same slide.

And, yes, definitely don't use fecal results as a single determining factor in your cham's health. They can still get bacterial or viral infections, and mineral/vitamin issues, and stress issues, and reproductive issues, etc.

We have a beautiful panther morph from the Kammers, named Pegasus, that changed behavior last week. His fecals were fine. But he was slow and a little listless, though still eating. Friday night I held him up to my ear to hear his breathing and thought I heard a slight clicking sound. When, Satuday morning, he was still asleep hours after the others were awake, and then sat in a weird awkward position for a few hours, we took him to the vet with a possible URI. We should get the results of the bloodwork and culture today. I will post that as well. Bloodwork always interests me, because it can tell you so much about whether you're doing your job feeder-wise. The vet felt Pegasus appeared healthy, but put him on antibiotics just in case.

(Sometimes chams will make that little clicking sound just because they don't want to be picked up. And, sometimes male chams become "lovesick" and act listless and go off their feed for a few days. Especially if they see a female, which he had. But still, we don't like to take chances.) Vet bill: about $248 (mostly because I requested a culture and complete bloodwork). Free parasite lesson from the Vet: worth a bundle more.

This is exactly what I needed. Thanks. Ill be looking forward to see some more info when you post it. And where to get a microscope (and what kind)would be nice also. I was searching ebay and theres too much to look at for someone like myself who doesnt know what to get. Robert

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

I just got a chance to read a few post!.. I'm days behind .

Glad to hear that someone got a hold of a nice old Zeiss . When in good condition, you're really getting great optics. I tried to get an older scope for weeks and just couldn't find what I wanted so I punted and bought one of the new ones often described as a "Pacific Rim" microscope because many are built on the same assembly lines as their more expensive cousins like Nikon and Olympus etc. in Indonesia and other places nearby. They don't have the higher quality optics but they do just fine for our application. As was mentioned, you can get a decent new scope for about $300. Final magnification of 40x, 100x, 400x are the most useful powers. 1000x and 1600x are pretty limited by their light gathering ability. Klingenberg's 2nd edition parasite that just came out is very helpful.

Also, as was mentioned by others, I've found that using my scope to do follow-up tests after my vet has examined the fecal material and prescribed medicine to be a very effective tool. I've been treating a particularly stubborn case of coccidia for many months. I take photos to track the effectiveness of treatment. I've had my scope for just over a year and have done over 50 tests.

Here's an example of a $300 scope that is ok for our use. Look at their trinocular scopes with or without a USB camera. There are ways to adapt your typical digital camera to microscopes but the adapters can be pricey.
http://cgi.ebay.com/40X-1600X-ADVAN...6792357QQihZ008QQcategoryZ71407QQcmdZViewItem

 

[dectr6]

That sounds like a really good idea… I have many many animals and I would like to do mass checks on them all at one time, but the cost of a $20 check per animal is usually cost prohibitive for me right now. How much did your scope cost yea?
[Or, dose anybody know of a vet that would do a large amount of checks for a flat price if I were to bag and mail the poo?] LoL… Mail’n poo… haha. “Sir, anything liquid, perishable or hazardous?” Ummmm well, Its Reptile poop…

Just got back results from vet...roundworms. Chad...Doc said he is not interested in bulk price poop. Sorry, I tried. David

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

So here goes. We purchased our microscope on ebay from precision*world. It looks just like the one Dave linked to on his post except that ours goes to 2000x. It is a 40-2000x binocular vet compound microscope+USB2 camera. It cost $309.98 plus $34.98 shipping. We chose that one because it has a mechanical slip platform and USB camera. Because of the number of chams we have (and we fecaled the dubias too!), and the followup tests we do, we've already used up 50 of the fecalyzers. At our vets office, 50 fecals (floats and smears) would have cost $1750. Just floats would have cost about $1000.

On ebay we also purchased the glass slips and covers, and Fecal-Med fecal analysis solution, and plastic disposable Fecalyzers for doing the floats. I think the smears are done with a saline solution, but I'm not sure.

The fecalyzer has 3 parts: the plastic container, the cap, and the green thingy that goes inside. Let me know if I'm getting too technical here .

1. you take the green insert out of the center of the little plastic fecalyzer and you use one end of it to pick up the poop. Then you replace poop and green insert back into the little white fecalyzer container. (if you have more than one cham then be sure to label each fecalyzer container so you know whose poop is whose.) Fill the container partially with Fecal Analysis Solution and twist the green insert back and forth to stir up the contents real good.

Then fill the container to the brim with the Fecal Analysis Solution, place the glass slip on top, mark the time, and let it stand for 15 minutes or so.

Then remove the glass slip from the fecalyzer and place it on the glass cover slide. My husband taps it down a bit to release the excess fluid. Otherwise your sample will be flowing all over the place when you view it under the microscope.

Then slide it onto the platform of the microscope and follow microscope directions. Normally we start at 100x and scroll across the slide and then zero in on certain areas. Use a book with good photographs and study it real good to get the images in your brain. And then refer to it often as you look at each slide. The parasites really do look just like the photographs in the book, so there isn't much guess work. Usually. Pay careful attention to the magnification listed for each photograph in the book, so you know what size ova to look for. When you come across pinworm or roundworm ova you'll know.

Then dispose of everything properly, and clean clean clean.