http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/mar2003/calyptratus/veiled_faq.html
Since I've anwsered your question, could you anwser mine? When can we expect the book?
fruit question
- Thread starter Jewel
- Start date
http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/mar2003/calyptratus/veiled_faq.html
Since I've anwsered your question, could you anwser mine? When can we expect the book?
I was looking for Dr. Cox on the web and I didn't find anything. Then I was searching for Biologo evoluzionista, Università "La Sapienza", Accademico dei Lincei, Roma, and I found this page http://dipbau.bio.uniroma1.it/web/Sedi/Il-persona/index.htm Here is a list of staff in biology department and on the list, there is nobody named Cox or even Kian. I found that a bit odd...
I tried to find Dr. Cox and his research, etc. too....no luck.
I was debating whether to comment on what was said or not....its difficult since most of it I can't find any information on that supports what Kian posted...but here goes anyhow...comments anyone??
Kian said..."we never consider the fact that fat is the activator of our hormones that control our moods"...fat is also important for vitamin A and D absorption. However, in spite of fat being needed, it is often the case that some animals, people and even insects can live longer lives when the diet is low in fat (not depleted of fat...just low). This for people at least, might be due to the fact that by limiting fat, you lower cholesterol....so it may not just be the fact that the diet is low in fat that the longevity occurs.
http://www.worldhealth.net/p/low-fat-low-protein-diet-boosts-longevity-2005-06-02.html
You said..."good animal keeping does not always mean transferring human values to animals. It goes without saying that animals, especially lizards, are in many ways different in their nutritional needs from humans"...many things that are true for people are true for animals...but certainly not all. Guinea pigs need vitamin C...they are missing an enzyme that is necessary for the body to make Vitamin C. Man, primates (apes, chimps, etc.) and guinea pigs have lost the ability to make it. Nocturnal creatures get no UVB so the vitamin D3 that they produce must come either from eating something that has vitamin D3 in it or from producing their own. However, "we" all (all creatures) have a lot of similar needs..."we" need calcium for strong bones, and vitamins and other minerals to allow our bodies to function in the way that they should.
You said..."In nature we have observed chameleons eating small birds in the nest and insects with high levels of fat in large quantities; we have even seen a pregnant T.C. Melleri dig into the earth and eat fat larvae"...there is no doubt in my mind that chameleons (and other lizards/creatures) have a much different diet in the wild than we can/do provide for them in captivity. Its one of the reasons we have difficulty feeding them in captivity in such a way to meet their nutritional needs.
You said..."The results of a study lasting 6 years by Dr. Cox and colleagues from Bologna and Rimini universities, have proved that the chameleon stores fat in its cheeks, chin and a part of the helm as a jelly substance: this jelly substance is not common fat cells as in humans and mammals but similar to the fat in camels"...can't find any references to this on the net. I am aware that chameleons store fat in various areas though.
You said..."The chameleon uses the chemical ficin which could be deadly in large quantities for humans. This toxin in chameleons digests and kills some parasites in the digestive flora and even keeps the growth of filarial (which is quite often found in chameleons in nature) under control"......the chameleon is not the only creature that uses plants and even soils to help with their well-being...
Geophagy (soil eating)...veileds have often been caught eating soils...
http://geography.about.com/cs/culturalgeography/a/geophagy.htm
http://www.duke.edu/~djb4/Colpa to Parrot Biology no figures.htm
Not only do creatures eat things that can control parasites, satisfying other needs can lead to getting parasites..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9692137&dopt=Citation
Geophagy also serves another purpose for some...protection against plant toxins...
http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/8_2DirtasFood.htm
Eating leaves....and other unusual (to us, anyway) remedies...
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/1/reallywildremedies.cfm
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/syllabus/module8.htm
You said..."I guess anyone extensively feeding their chameleon veggies with high vitamin C content have experienced diarrhoea in the animal! "...I have fed my crickets with many veggies and greens that are high in vitamin C and I also feed many of my other reptiles greens and veggies and have had no cases of diarrhea in any of them. Of course, I have not done a study concerning the necessity or what vitamin C does to any of them...nor can I find any references on the net or elsewhere indicating what you said about the vitamin C. I can say that I have not had a sick reptile for a long time now...and most of the deaths have been in old agers or in recent WC imports (which would not likely have been from the diet I provided anyway)...so all I can assume is that what I have been doing to keep them is in some way good.
You said..."The fat is assimilated with cholesterin (cholesterin is used in soaps to bind fat and non-fat substances) and not cholesterol as in mammals, which is why the extra fat in chameleons is similar to the fat camels have to store water for the normal functioning of their vital organs, enabling their survival in arid environments – quite logically, every creature living there has survived because it has been able to adapt to the hostile environment demands and successfully live there for millions of years. The other interesting fact about cholesterin is that when animals accumulate too much fat or the fat is not needed its starts excreting the “bad” fat (there are products for lowering cholesterol with cholesterin for humans)"....while I can find some references to cholesterin...I can't find enough information on what you said to comment on it.
You said..."Of course, we know that a lizard’s metabolism, especially a chameleon’s metabolism is not similar to a human’s. So it is not at all bad to feed a chameleon regularly (once or twice a month) with pinkies or fat larva if the chameleon has no liver disease and enough space to move"...what does having space to move have to do with it? Vitamins A and D3 are fat soluble....it makes me wonder what too much fat in the diet will do concerning them. Comments?
You said..."with regard to feeding juvenile chameleons with Zophobas Morio or mealworms, these two have a large quantity of fibres that stops them assimilating nutritious elements from their food and tends to stunt the growth of the animal, although they have never proven to be deadly or to make the animal weak"...I thought some fiber was good in a diet. Fiber is known to be indigestible and contain no nutrients, but is helps to move the food through the digestive tract and absorbs moisture making it bulkier and easier to move along...so it helps prevent constipation...so I don't understand how it would prevent growth or cause an animal to be weak unless it was getting nothing/little but fiber. Please explain.
You said..."We know of course that chameleon flora is different from human flora (there are different bacteria in the chameleon’s digestive system) and vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) kills some of these bacteria in the chameleon’s digestive system, but it is the opposite case with the iguana, which needs vitamin C, although the iguana is a strictly herbivorous animal"...I would be interested in reading more about this as well. In bearded dragons it takes very high doses of vitamin C to cause diarrhea so what is the difference in veiled chameleons?
I was debating whether to comment on what was said or not....its difficult since most of it I can't find any information on that supports what Kian posted...but here goes anyhow...comments anyone??
Kian said..."we never consider the fact that fat is the activator of our hormones that control our moods"...fat is also important for vitamin A and D absorption. However, in spite of fat being needed, it is often the case that some animals, people and even insects can live longer lives when the diet is low in fat (not depleted of fat...just low). This for people at least, might be due to the fact that by limiting fat, you lower cholesterol....so it may not just be the fact that the diet is low in fat that the longevity occurs.
http://www.worldhealth.net/p/low-fat-low-protein-diet-boosts-longevity-2005-06-02.html
You said..."good animal keeping does not always mean transferring human values to animals. It goes without saying that animals, especially lizards, are in many ways different in their nutritional needs from humans"...many things that are true for people are true for animals...but certainly not all. Guinea pigs need vitamin C...they are missing an enzyme that is necessary for the body to make Vitamin C. Man, primates (apes, chimps, etc.) and guinea pigs have lost the ability to make it. Nocturnal creatures get no UVB so the vitamin D3 that they produce must come either from eating something that has vitamin D3 in it or from producing their own. However, "we" all (all creatures) have a lot of similar needs..."we" need calcium for strong bones, and vitamins and other minerals to allow our bodies to function in the way that they should.
You said..."In nature we have observed chameleons eating small birds in the nest and insects with high levels of fat in large quantities; we have even seen a pregnant T.C. Melleri dig into the earth and eat fat larvae"...there is no doubt in my mind that chameleons (and other lizards/creatures) have a much different diet in the wild than we can/do provide for them in captivity. Its one of the reasons we have difficulty feeding them in captivity in such a way to meet their nutritional needs.
You said..."The results of a study lasting 6 years by Dr. Cox and colleagues from Bologna and Rimini universities, have proved that the chameleon stores fat in its cheeks, chin and a part of the helm as a jelly substance: this jelly substance is not common fat cells as in humans and mammals but similar to the fat in camels"...can't find any references to this on the net. I am aware that chameleons store fat in various areas though.
You said..."The chameleon uses the chemical ficin which could be deadly in large quantities for humans. This toxin in chameleons digests and kills some parasites in the digestive flora and even keeps the growth of filarial (which is quite often found in chameleons in nature) under control"......the chameleon is not the only creature that uses plants and even soils to help with their well-being...
Geophagy (soil eating)...veileds have often been caught eating soils...
http://geography.about.com/cs/culturalgeography/a/geophagy.htm
http://www.duke.edu/~djb4/Colpa to Parrot Biology no figures.htm
Not only do creatures eat things that can control parasites, satisfying other needs can lead to getting parasites..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9692137&dopt=Citation
Geophagy also serves another purpose for some...protection against plant toxins...
http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/8_2DirtasFood.htm
Eating leaves....and other unusual (to us, anyway) remedies...
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/1/reallywildremedies.cfm
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/syllabus/module8.htm
You said..."I guess anyone extensively feeding their chameleon veggies with high vitamin C content have experienced diarrhoea in the animal! "...I have fed my crickets with many veggies and greens that are high in vitamin C and I also feed many of my other reptiles greens and veggies and have had no cases of diarrhea in any of them. Of course, I have not done a study concerning the necessity or what vitamin C does to any of them...nor can I find any references on the net or elsewhere indicating what you said about the vitamin C. I can say that I have not had a sick reptile for a long time now...and most of the deaths have been in old agers or in recent WC imports (which would not likely have been from the diet I provided anyway)...so all I can assume is that what I have been doing to keep them is in some way good.
You said..."The fat is assimilated with cholesterin (cholesterin is used in soaps to bind fat and non-fat substances) and not cholesterol as in mammals, which is why the extra fat in chameleons is similar to the fat camels have to store water for the normal functioning of their vital organs, enabling their survival in arid environments – quite logically, every creature living there has survived because it has been able to adapt to the hostile environment demands and successfully live there for millions of years. The other interesting fact about cholesterin is that when animals accumulate too much fat or the fat is not needed its starts excreting the “bad” fat (there are products for lowering cholesterol with cholesterin for humans)"....while I can find some references to cholesterin...I can't find enough information on what you said to comment on it.
You said..."Of course, we know that a lizard’s metabolism, especially a chameleon’s metabolism is not similar to a human’s. So it is not at all bad to feed a chameleon regularly (once or twice a month) with pinkies or fat larva if the chameleon has no liver disease and enough space to move"...what does having space to move have to do with it? Vitamins A and D3 are fat soluble....it makes me wonder what too much fat in the diet will do concerning them. Comments?
You said..."with regard to feeding juvenile chameleons with Zophobas Morio or mealworms, these two have a large quantity of fibres that stops them assimilating nutritious elements from their food and tends to stunt the growth of the animal, although they have never proven to be deadly or to make the animal weak"...I thought some fiber was good in a diet. Fiber is known to be indigestible and contain no nutrients, but is helps to move the food through the digestive tract and absorbs moisture making it bulkier and easier to move along...so it helps prevent constipation...so I don't understand how it would prevent growth or cause an animal to be weak unless it was getting nothing/little but fiber. Please explain.
You said..."We know of course that chameleon flora is different from human flora (there are different bacteria in the chameleon’s digestive system) and vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) kills some of these bacteria in the chameleon’s digestive system, but it is the opposite case with the iguana, which needs vitamin C, although the iguana is a strictly herbivorous animal"...I would be interested in reading more about this as well. In bearded dragons it takes very high doses of vitamin C to cause diarrhea so what is the difference in veiled chameleons?
Kian
New Member
Dear Hasek, I never said that Dr. Cox is a professor at the La Sapienza, he is a member of the Darwin Center and a researcher in Zoology department at NHM. I, too, am not a member of La Sapienza, but am collaborating in many researches (Biologo evoluzionista it is a title given by the university). Before you enviously challenge someone, learn English or Italian first.
As for you Kinyonga, it seems you are challenging me under the influence of Hasek or some non-scientific facts you were able to found on the internet. Anyway, I checked, and even there you could find supporting facts for many of my claims. Among others that cholesterin is a “good” cholesterol also known as cholesten. You should try going to more scientific sites, that’s why I won’t bother taking your challenge, I find it a waste of my time. I provide you with some quality scientific information and not internet speculations, accept it or research it properly, as I said, many of the researches are going to be published in the new book.
You should try supporting for a change, as many keepers do, instead you childishly try to challenge every word I say looking for proofs on the internet. I guess none of you speaks Italian.
If you don’t like the article, you don’t need to accept or follow it, I’m just trying to contribute my 2 cents to the better cham keeping.
here are your replays:
1. Chams metabolic processes differ from the human ones, a fact written about by many scientists.
2. It was proven through many studies that Vitamin C does well to the flora of herbivorous animals and not to the flora of insects, don’t mix it all up just to oppose me.
3. Cholesterin is another name for Cholesten – well known to scientists – you could find out about it in a 5 minute accurate internet search!
4. I never said that cham is the only animal eating leaves, I just stressed the importance of ficin! Strictly herbivorous animals need to neutralise the cocktail of much more potent toxins by eating soil containing coalin, which also neutralizes Vitamin C, hm hm, how interesting.
5. I said extensively feeding on Vitamin C, not giving veggies from time to time, I stressed this because I know many keepers feeding cham solely on fruit basis.
6. Too much fat in the diet will hindrance the female from mating, she loses the interest to mate (happens very often), in some cases Vitamin A in chams is highly toxic.
7. There are different types of fibres including chemical to bind them. The hard fibre of Zoofobas Morio and mealworms contains substance known as chitin which is hard to dissolve in the digestive system and not the same as fibres found in veggies. It reduces the ability of nutrient absorption, it’s not a matter of fibres but nutrient absorption.
8. They don’t come from Australia, if you could find in 5 minutes what flora is found in the chameleon digestive system you could also find that some bacteria are killed by Vitamin C.
I believe the article is comprehendible to any sound rational being and also of great help. You are searching an easy way to defy everything I say by generalizing and discrediting with false data. As I already said, you can find everything if you take more than 5 minutes to look for it and not just check the first couple of google hits. I won’t bother anymore with replying to such provocations, it’s like throwing pearls to the swine.
As for you Kinyonga, it seems you are challenging me under the influence of Hasek or some non-scientific facts you were able to found on the internet. Anyway, I checked, and even there you could find supporting facts for many of my claims. Among others that cholesterin is a “good” cholesterol also known as cholesten. You should try going to more scientific sites, that’s why I won’t bother taking your challenge, I find it a waste of my time. I provide you with some quality scientific information and not internet speculations, accept it or research it properly, as I said, many of the researches are going to be published in the new book.
You should try supporting for a change, as many keepers do, instead you childishly try to challenge every word I say looking for proofs on the internet. I guess none of you speaks Italian.
If you don’t like the article, you don’t need to accept or follow it, I’m just trying to contribute my 2 cents to the better cham keeping.
here are your replays:
1. Chams metabolic processes differ from the human ones, a fact written about by many scientists.
2. It was proven through many studies that Vitamin C does well to the flora of herbivorous animals and not to the flora of insects, don’t mix it all up just to oppose me.
3. Cholesterin is another name for Cholesten – well known to scientists – you could find out about it in a 5 minute accurate internet search!
4. I never said that cham is the only animal eating leaves, I just stressed the importance of ficin! Strictly herbivorous animals need to neutralise the cocktail of much more potent toxins by eating soil containing coalin, which also neutralizes Vitamin C, hm hm, how interesting.
5. I said extensively feeding on Vitamin C, not giving veggies from time to time, I stressed this because I know many keepers feeding cham solely on fruit basis.
6. Too much fat in the diet will hindrance the female from mating, she loses the interest to mate (happens very often), in some cases Vitamin A in chams is highly toxic.
7. There are different types of fibres including chemical to bind them. The hard fibre of Zoofobas Morio and mealworms contains substance known as chitin which is hard to dissolve in the digestive system and not the same as fibres found in veggies. It reduces the ability of nutrient absorption, it’s not a matter of fibres but nutrient absorption.
8. They don’t come from Australia, if you could find in 5 minutes what flora is found in the chameleon digestive system you could also find that some bacteria are killed by Vitamin C.
I believe the article is comprehendible to any sound rational being and also of great help. You are searching an easy way to defy everything I say by generalizing and discrediting with false data. As I already said, you can find everything if you take more than 5 minutes to look for it and not just check the first couple of google hits. I won’t bother anymore with replying to such provocations, it’s like throwing pearls to the swine.
You said..."As for you Kinyonga, it seems you are challenging me under the influence of Hasek or some non-scientific facts you were able to found on the internet"...I am not challenging you under the influence of Hasek...I was already looking for information on Dr. Cox's studies to LEARN about what you had said. The fact is that I am not challenging you at all, I am trying to discuss what you have said, understand what you have said....but if all you do is make statements and expect all of us/me to just blindly accept them then there can be no discussion and we/I can't learn from it or understand it. Very few of us are scientists...but many of us are good chameleon keepers and always interested in learning how to be better.
You said..."I checked, and even there you could find supporting facts for many of my claims"...I tried...perhaps you could give me some website addresses or give me the right words that will bring up the supporting facts?
You said..."Among others that cholesterin is a “good” cholesterol also known as cholesten. You should try going to more scientific sites, that’s why I won’t bother taking your challenge, I find it a waste of my time. I provide you with some quality scientific information and not internet speculations, accept it or research it properly, as I said, many of the researches are going to be published in the new book"...first of all, as I already said, why would you expect that "we" should all just accept what you say without any proof not knowing who you are or the validity of your information? Many people make claims on forums that have no scientific basis or don't come from experience either. Secondly, I did look up cholesterin...I could find nothing about camels or chameleons your comment that "The fat is assimilated with cholesterin (cholesterin is used in soaps to bind fat and non-fat substances) and not cholesterol as in mammals, which is why the extra fat in chameleons is similar to the fat camels have to store water for the normal functioning of their vital organs, enabling their survival in arid environments". Again...instead of me having to spend more time looking for this when I have already spent hours, perhaps you could give me some site addresses? Also, here again, I did not challenge you, I simply asked for more information about it so I could understand/learn.
You said..."You should try supporting for a change, as many keepers do, instead you childishly try to challenge every word I say looking for proofs on the internet. I guess none of you speaks Italian"...if I blindly accepted and supported things without questioning things, I wouldn't be where I was today. For example, there was a paper written that said if female veiled chameleons were not mated when they became sexually mature they would die eggbound. I did not mate my females and my veileds did not die eggbound. I am not going to waste my time giving you other examples. I support what I believe in and what has been proven to be right.
You said.."If you don’t like the article, you don’t need to accept or follow it, I’m just trying to contribute my 2 cents to the better cham keeping"...I haven't seen the article yet (as you know) and since you don't want to discuss what your own comments on it, then there can be no conversation anyway.
You replied..."1. Chams metabolic processes differ from the human ones, a fact written about by many scientists"...I did not dispute this in the first place. Its obvious.
You replied..."2. It was proven through many studies that Vitamin C does well to the flora of herbivorous animals and not to the flora of insects, don’t mix it all up just to oppose me"...you said "not to the flora of insects"...do you mean insectivores? And what about omnivores...how does vitamin C do for their flora?
You said..."3. Cholesterin is another name for Cholesten – well known to scientists – you could find out about it in a 5 minute accurate internet search!"...I did read lots about cholesterin...looked up cholesten too...but as I said above could find nothing that related to chameleons or camels.
You replied.."4. I never said that cham is the only animal eating leaves, I just stressed the importance of ficin! Strictly herbivorous animals need to neutralise the cocktail of much more potent toxins by eating soil containing coalin, which also neutralizes Vitamin C, hm hm, how interesting"....I was not questioning what you said only adding to it that many other animals did similar things. I also didn't say that I doubted the importance of ficin. I once talked to a professor who was studying geophagy and indicated that my female veiled chameleons ate sand and that he might want to look into it for his studies. He said that they were likely only doing it from boredom. If I were a scientist, I wouldn't overlook something that could possibly contribute to my area of study even if it didn't pan out. This along with other studies that I have read about have led me to question rather than blindly support new information. I realize that all scientists are not like this professor or the person who said that the veiled females would die eggbound if not mated at maturity. I do know a bit about kaolin (at least I'm assuming that is what you mean when you say caolin)...its from clay and is usually used to stop diarrhea (among other things).
You replied..."5. I said extensively feeding on Vitamin C, not giving veggies from time to time, I stressed this because I know many keepers feeding cham solely on fruit basis"...you said..."I guess anyone extensively feeding their chameleon veggies with high vitamin C content have experienced diarrhoea in the animal!'...I have fed my veiled chameleons twice a week a diet of greens (dandelion, vitamin C content...35mg per 100 g., Kale... 80mg per cup,), veggies (squash...21mg per cup,) and a little fruit (apples...6mg/100g, pear...4mg/100g)....and they have stools that are of a good consistency. My crickets get a diet of veggies and greens too...so the veileds would get some from them too.
You replied..."6. Too much fat in the diet will hindrance the female from mating, she loses the interest to mate (happens very often), in some cases Vitamin A in chams is highly toxic"...if you have read what I have said about keeping/stopping veiled chameleons from producing eggs in other threads, you would have found that not only do I not feed the female veiled chameleons a high fat diet, but I restrict their consumption (limit their diet) to prevent them from producing eggs. Regarding vitamin A...it can be highly toxic in some cases in veiled chameleons. I have been an advocate of balancing vitamin A, D3, calcium and phosphorous to avoid problems.
You replied..."7. There are different types of fibres including chemical to bind them. The hard fibre of Zoofobas Morio and mealworms contains substance known as chitin which is hard to dissolve in the digestive system and not the same as fibres found in veggies. It reduces the ability of nutrient absorption, it’s not a matter of fibres but nutrient absorption"...if you had said chitin in the first place I would not have thought that you were referring to some other fibers and would have understood where you were coming from.
You replied..."8. They don’t come from Australia, if you could find in 5 minutes what flora is found in the chameleon digestive system you could also find that some bacteria are killed by Vitamin C"....Hmm..."They don't come from Australia"...is that an insult to Australians?? Again, I have searched and couldn't find any information about bacteria being killed in the chameleon's gut by vitamin C.
You said..."I believe the article is comprehendible to any sound rational being and also of great help. You are searching an easy way to defy everything I say by generalizing and discrediting with false data. As I already said, you can find everything if you take more than 5 minutes to look for it and not just check the first couple of google hits. I won’t bother anymore with replying to such provocations, it’s like throwing pearls to the swine"...not only did I not try to "defy" what you said...insulting me is not very adult-like and could be construed as defamation of character. I hope you don't talk to your mother or other females like this.
The validity of your work will become apparent when the paper/book is published and your peers and others review it. Looking forward to reading it.
You said..."I checked, and even there you could find supporting facts for many of my claims"...I tried...perhaps you could give me some website addresses or give me the right words that will bring up the supporting facts?
You said..."Among others that cholesterin is a “good” cholesterol also known as cholesten. You should try going to more scientific sites, that’s why I won’t bother taking your challenge, I find it a waste of my time. I provide you with some quality scientific information and not internet speculations, accept it or research it properly, as I said, many of the researches are going to be published in the new book"...first of all, as I already said, why would you expect that "we" should all just accept what you say without any proof not knowing who you are or the validity of your information? Many people make claims on forums that have no scientific basis or don't come from experience either. Secondly, I did look up cholesterin...I could find nothing about camels or chameleons your comment that "The fat is assimilated with cholesterin (cholesterin is used in soaps to bind fat and non-fat substances) and not cholesterol as in mammals, which is why the extra fat in chameleons is similar to the fat camels have to store water for the normal functioning of their vital organs, enabling their survival in arid environments". Again...instead of me having to spend more time looking for this when I have already spent hours, perhaps you could give me some site addresses? Also, here again, I did not challenge you, I simply asked for more information about it so I could understand/learn.
You said..."You should try supporting for a change, as many keepers do, instead you childishly try to challenge every word I say looking for proofs on the internet. I guess none of you speaks Italian"...if I blindly accepted and supported things without questioning things, I wouldn't be where I was today. For example, there was a paper written that said if female veiled chameleons were not mated when they became sexually mature they would die eggbound. I did not mate my females and my veileds did not die eggbound. I am not going to waste my time giving you other examples. I support what I believe in and what has been proven to be right.
You said.."If you don’t like the article, you don’t need to accept or follow it, I’m just trying to contribute my 2 cents to the better cham keeping"...I haven't seen the article yet (as you know) and since you don't want to discuss what your own comments on it, then there can be no conversation anyway.
You replied..."1. Chams metabolic processes differ from the human ones, a fact written about by many scientists"...I did not dispute this in the first place. Its obvious.
You replied..."2. It was proven through many studies that Vitamin C does well to the flora of herbivorous animals and not to the flora of insects, don’t mix it all up just to oppose me"...you said "not to the flora of insects"...do you mean insectivores? And what about omnivores...how does vitamin C do for their flora?
You said..."3. Cholesterin is another name for Cholesten – well known to scientists – you could find out about it in a 5 minute accurate internet search!"...I did read lots about cholesterin...looked up cholesten too...but as I said above could find nothing that related to chameleons or camels.
You replied.."4. I never said that cham is the only animal eating leaves, I just stressed the importance of ficin! Strictly herbivorous animals need to neutralise the cocktail of much more potent toxins by eating soil containing coalin, which also neutralizes Vitamin C, hm hm, how interesting"....I was not questioning what you said only adding to it that many other animals did similar things. I also didn't say that I doubted the importance of ficin. I once talked to a professor who was studying geophagy and indicated that my female veiled chameleons ate sand and that he might want to look into it for his studies. He said that they were likely only doing it from boredom. If I were a scientist, I wouldn't overlook something that could possibly contribute to my area of study even if it didn't pan out. This along with other studies that I have read about have led me to question rather than blindly support new information. I realize that all scientists are not like this professor or the person who said that the veiled females would die eggbound if not mated at maturity. I do know a bit about kaolin (at least I'm assuming that is what you mean when you say caolin)...its from clay and is usually used to stop diarrhea (among other things).
You replied..."5. I said extensively feeding on Vitamin C, not giving veggies from time to time, I stressed this because I know many keepers feeding cham solely on fruit basis"...you said..."I guess anyone extensively feeding their chameleon veggies with high vitamin C content have experienced diarrhoea in the animal!'...I have fed my veiled chameleons twice a week a diet of greens (dandelion, vitamin C content...35mg per 100 g., Kale... 80mg per cup,), veggies (squash...21mg per cup,) and a little fruit (apples...6mg/100g, pear...4mg/100g)....and they have stools that are of a good consistency. My crickets get a diet of veggies and greens too...so the veileds would get some from them too.
You replied..."6. Too much fat in the diet will hindrance the female from mating, she loses the interest to mate (happens very often), in some cases Vitamin A in chams is highly toxic"...if you have read what I have said about keeping/stopping veiled chameleons from producing eggs in other threads, you would have found that not only do I not feed the female veiled chameleons a high fat diet, but I restrict their consumption (limit their diet) to prevent them from producing eggs. Regarding vitamin A...it can be highly toxic in some cases in veiled chameleons. I have been an advocate of balancing vitamin A, D3, calcium and phosphorous to avoid problems.
You replied..."7. There are different types of fibres including chemical to bind them. The hard fibre of Zoofobas Morio and mealworms contains substance known as chitin which is hard to dissolve in the digestive system and not the same as fibres found in veggies. It reduces the ability of nutrient absorption, it’s not a matter of fibres but nutrient absorption"...if you had said chitin in the first place I would not have thought that you were referring to some other fibers and would have understood where you were coming from.
You replied..."8. They don’t come from Australia, if you could find in 5 minutes what flora is found in the chameleon digestive system you could also find that some bacteria are killed by Vitamin C"....Hmm..."They don't come from Australia"...is that an insult to Australians?? Again, I have searched and couldn't find any information about bacteria being killed in the chameleon's gut by vitamin C.
You said..."I believe the article is comprehendible to any sound rational being and also of great help. You are searching an easy way to defy everything I say by generalizing and discrediting with false data. As I already said, you can find everything if you take more than 5 minutes to look for it and not just check the first couple of google hits. I won’t bother anymore with replying to such provocations, it’s like throwing pearls to the swine"...not only did I not try to "defy" what you said...insulting me is not very adult-like and could be construed as defamation of character. I hope you don't talk to your mother or other females like this.
The validity of your work will become apparent when the paper/book is published and your peers and others review it. Looking forward to reading it.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Kian,
I find it interesting that rather then provide any citations yourself, you expect people to blindly except your information as accurate and take offense when they ask for references. Further, when they bring in other information, you criticize the sources and state that they should do better research and reference more accurate sources, yet you refuse to provide any sources to the contrary other then a book you are working on and won't give the name for. Also, rather then discuss the topic further or address the information others have brought to the discussion, you decide to throw insults because people have the nerve to seek clarification from you or even question your information based on the information they already have. Even still, you don't provide anything other then your word on the information.
Coming from the biological scientific field myself, I tend to look at information given by scientists who act in this manner as close to worthless since this type of behavior and lack of appropriate backing is not indicative of anything other then mediocre scientific practices. I'm sure it looks badly to others as well. Refusal to cite sources or discuss contrary information and expecting people to blindly take your information shows a poor understanding for how science works which is particularly interesting considering how you chastise others for not being scientist or understanding scientific principles.
I'm quite impressed with your English and must admit that I do not speak any semblance of Italian but, your insinuation that because we don't speak Italian and that somehow by questioning information and asking for more information we follow less of a scientific path then you only makes your post and the information in them look invalid. Perhaps the intention of Kinyonia's post was misunderstood in translation but your response shows extreme arrogance and I don't believe it shows solid scientific standards.
I hope we find your book provides better details on your information then your correspondences have. The information you have started to discuss is of interest but your refusal to respond to questions and other information on the subject is unfortunate as no one benefits from it. Perhaps you can step away from throwing insults and discuss the topic openly and provide additional information so that we all might be able to better understand what you are trying to express?
Chris
I find it interesting that rather then provide any citations yourself, you expect people to blindly except your information as accurate and take offense when they ask for references. Further, when they bring in other information, you criticize the sources and state that they should do better research and reference more accurate sources, yet you refuse to provide any sources to the contrary other then a book you are working on and won't give the name for. Also, rather then discuss the topic further or address the information others have brought to the discussion, you decide to throw insults because people have the nerve to seek clarification from you or even question your information based on the information they already have. Even still, you don't provide anything other then your word on the information.
Coming from the biological scientific field myself, I tend to look at information given by scientists who act in this manner as close to worthless since this type of behavior and lack of appropriate backing is not indicative of anything other then mediocre scientific practices. I'm sure it looks badly to others as well. Refusal to cite sources or discuss contrary information and expecting people to blindly take your information shows a poor understanding for how science works which is particularly interesting considering how you chastise others for not being scientist or understanding scientific principles.
I'm quite impressed with your English and must admit that I do not speak any semblance of Italian but, your insinuation that because we don't speak Italian and that somehow by questioning information and asking for more information we follow less of a scientific path then you only makes your post and the information in them look invalid. Perhaps the intention of Kinyonia's post was misunderstood in translation but your response shows extreme arrogance and I don't believe it shows solid scientific standards.
I hope we find your book provides better details on your information then your correspondences have. The information you have started to discuss is of interest but your refusal to respond to questions and other information on the subject is unfortunate as no one benefits from it. Perhaps you can step away from throwing insults and discuss the topic openly and provide additional information so that we all might be able to better understand what you are trying to express?
Chris
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Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Yes Chris.
Yet another person on the forums who commands my respect.
Thanks for stepping in there.
And by the way Kinyonga, you did an admirable job defending yourself and your questions without attacking.
I too will be interested in this book/paper if and when I have opportunity to read it.
-Brad
Yet another person on the forums who commands my respect.
Thanks for stepping in there.
And by the way Kinyonga, you did an admirable job defending yourself and your questions without attacking.
I too will be interested in this book/paper if and when I have opportunity to read it.
-Brad
