fortification of hornworm & silkworm chows

[pamnsam94]

Does anyone know whether the commercial hornworm and silkworm chows are fortified with D3 and/or preformed vitamin A? If they are, I will steer clear of them. Currently, the only silkworms I use are hatched from eggs and grown on mulberry leaves from my property. Since I have an ample supply of mulberry leaves, I mostly want to know about vitamin fortification (especially D3 but also preformed vitamin A) in the most common commercial hornworm chows. However, knowing about commercial silkworm chows would be useful. I also want to know whether Phoenix Worms (or other black soldier fly suppliers) feed the larvae any fortified foods. If so, I'll have to reconsider using them. I much prefer to only use whole, unprocessed foods for my feeder insects.

Perry

 

[AlecWade]

I'm also curious about what these chows consist of. Luckily I found a mulberry tree on my property as I thought our only one was cut down last year. Do mulberry leaves have any decent nutritional value that you know of?

So many people regularly use horn and silkworm chow and I wish a nutritional analysis was more readily available on the stuff!

 

[pamnsam94]

I'm also curious about what these chows consist of. Luckily I found a mulberry tree on my property as I thought our only one was cut down last year. Do mulberry leaves have any decent nutritional value that you know of?

So many people regularly use horn and silkworm chow and I wish a nutritional analysis was more readily available on the stuff!

A nutrional analysis would be definitely be good to know. Because I can gutload with a variety of whole foods to provide needed nutrients, I'm most concerned though with using feeders that are fed commercial feeds that are most likely fortified with all kinds of vitamins and minerals. Not knowing which vitamins, minerals nor the amounts in each of the commercial feeds can be very risky in my view and experince.

I once ordered Dubia roaches and fed some to one of my adult male quads soon after receiving them. Within a couple of days, the male developed a gular edema (often a symptom of organ malfunction and/or permanent damage). Prior to that incident, he never once had an edema. Feeding him the roaches was the only variable that changed in my husbandry. Some may say I made a simple, even stupid, mistake by feeding the male quad the roaches so soon after receiving them (true), but I also see it as a gross oversight on my part because I should have known better, being well aware of the problems of overdosing (especially those containing D3 but also preformed vitamin A). Unfortunately, it wasn't until after the fact that I emailed the person I ordered the roaches from to find out what they fed their roaches. As suspected, they did use fortified foods, specifically dog food, which has both D3 and preformed vitamin A.

If possible, it would definitely be a good idea to find out what the suppliers are feeding their insects, or, at the very least, hold the insects for awhile (one week or more??) before feeding them out to your animals. Be especially careful if you find out the supplier used vitamin fortified foods (especially D3 and preformed vitamin A). Some insects may only need to clear their guts before you use them while others may store potentially high doses of certain vitamins for longer periods of time. I know some people experience problems when they switch cricket suppliers. I don't know which suppliers use what commercial feeds. Be cautious, especially with montanes.

Perry

 

[pamnsam94]

Is there no one that has answers to my original post? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[pamnsam94]

Some of you senior members must know. Maybe some of you even have contacts with the manufacturers of these commercial chows. The info I'm asking for will benefit a lot of us. C'mon now! Please. I guess my next step would be to contact manufacturers and/or vendors (crickets suppliers, etc. to find out what feeds they use). One way or another I should be able to learn what vitamins and amounts the commercial chows are fortified with. I especially want to know if and how much D3 and preformed vitamin A is added. I just thought I would ask one more time because my guess is someone out there knows the answers to my questions.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Does anyone know whether the commercial hornworm and silkworm chows are fortified with D3 and/or preformed vitamin A? If they are, I will steer clear of them. Currently, the only silkworms I use are hatched from eggs and grown on mulberry leaves from my property. Since I have an ample supply of mulberry leaves, I mostly want to know about vitamin fortification

The place I buy silkworm chow from would not divulge (or did not know) what was in it. though I kinda doubt they bother to add anything that would cost them money without using that as part of their advertising sell. so my guess is there isnt anything "useful" added (not suggesting having vitamins added would necessarily be useful) - though who knows what cheap useless filler crap is added.

If you have access to mulberry leaves (as well as the other things silkworms eat, like grape vine leaves, dandelion leaves, hybiscus leaves, etc) then why would you want chow anyways? Mulberry leaves etc make a good gutload.

 

[AngieL]

The only thing I can find that's definately added is agar, that's what makes it solidify as far as I know. Is it not just dried ground mulberry leaves? Or am I just a noob

 

[pamnsam94]

The place I buy silkworm chow from would not divulge (or did not know) what was in it. though I kinda doubt they bother to add anything that would cost them money without using that as part of their advertising sell. so my guess is there isnt anything "useful" added (not suggesting having vitamins added would necessarily be useful) - though who knows what cheap useless filler crap is added.

If you have access to mulberry leaves (as well as the other things silkworms eat, like grape vine leaves, dandelion leaves, hybiscus leaves, etc) then why would you want chow anyways? Mulberry leaves etc make a good gutload.

Thanks for the info. You're right. I don't want to use chow, especially with silkworms because I do have a supply of mulberry leaves. However, because I also want to use hornworms, I thought I may need to use the hornworm chow with them since their natural foods (tomato leaves, etc.) are said to be toxic to chameleons. Although I've heard of people feeding wild hornworms to their chameleons, apparently with no ill effect, it seems too risky given the general consensus.

 

[sandrachameleon]

hornworms prefer tomatoe leaves, but will also eat grape vine leaves, etc. You could grow them up on chow (or maybe even tomatoe leaves) and then switch to grape vine leaves, slivered sweet red bell pepper, etc in the two or three days before you feed off.

 

[pamnsam94]

Do you happen to know if hornworms can be raised from eggs strictly on a diet of wild grape leaves? That would be great because I have plenty of those on my property! I know that there are larvae of other members of the Sphingidae family (hawk moths, sphinx moths and hornworms) whose natural diet includes both wild grape (Vitis sp.) leaves and virginia creeper (I have a lot of that plant too), but I don't know whether any of species of the Manduca genus (tomato and tobacco hornworms) can be raised exclusively on those foods. It would be good to know if someone has tried this and if it was a sufficient for their entire life cycle.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Do you happen to know if hornworms can be raised from eggs strictly on a diet of wild grape leaves?

Sorry, I do not know. Might be worth starting a new thread specific to that question. I know a few people do breed/raise them on this forum. There may be someone who would know if it would be sufficient for the entire life-cycle. Or if you decide to give it a go, please do let us know how you make out!

 

[pssh]

They can be raised on grape leaves. However, I do not know if it would affect overall size or reproduction in adult moths. I have raised them on grape leaves before, but they were eaten fast.


In all the lepidoptera diets I've seen/researched, there is usually some form of vitamins added to the diet for the larvae. I've never seen vit D in them, and I can't remember if there is a vit A in it. I would imagine that if any vit A is in fact in the diet, it wouldn't be preformed, so it would be the similar to the vit A that is found in plants/veggies/fruits and what not.

 

[pamnsam94]

That's good to know. Thank you for that info. I'll definitely be ordering some hornworm eggs. Hopefully, some of the larvae will pupate and the moths will breed and lay eggs, even though I'll be using a grape leaf diet for the larvae. I've bred hornworm moths before, but I never liked dealing with the hornworm chow.

 

[pssh]

You can try making your own chow. There are tons of different diets online and one is even formulated so that all the ingredients can be purchased in a supermarket.

 

[sandrachameleon]

You can try making your own chow. There are tons of different diets online and one is even formulated so that all the ingredients can be purchased in a supermarket.

could you link us to a few?