Foleyella furcata info needed
- Thread starter Stumpy
- Start date
leanna156
Member
I don't actually have any experience with Foleyella furcata or other nematodes, but I do have the book Understanding Reptile Parasites, which says that Panacur (fenbendazole) works better at eliminating nematodes and offers a better range of safety. It doesn't mention that type of nematode specifically.
studiocham
New Member
No, fenbendazole is not effective on Microfilaria like Foleyella. Not a whole lot is known about exotic parasites because they are not affecting Western livestock, thus not a market worthy of reserach. Nice, huh? (That was from a Fort Dodge rep.) Some Foleyella species remain undescribed, adding to the confusion when they are found in WC exotic pets.
Fenbendazole is helpful in getting all the "background" parasite loads removed or reduced, in several treatments, before attempting to kill the Microfilaria with ivermectin.
From the Medical page of the MD:
"Most pet owners are familiar with heartworms in dogs, which are similar but less savage to their hosts. Microfilaria of the Foleyella family have subadult and adult stage worms that do not restrict themselves to the cardiovascular system. These worms burrow throughout the chameleon's body organs, and depending on where they go, can kill it slowly over years or suddenly by cutting an artery. There is conflicting opinion on whether or not Ivermectin is a good gamble for destroying these worms in WC captives. Some keepers use a system of several high doses of fenbendazole, followed by two low doses of ivermectin. Some veterinarians say that repeated surgical removals via endoscopy is the only safe option. The most frustrating part about WCs infected with Foleyella is that they can have clean fecals and appear in perfect health right before sudden death by a wayward worm. The only way to detect these worms, apart from a lucky ultrasound, is to do repeated blood smears over several weeks to catch any eggs and early stage worms in the blood, during each lifecycle. At some stages, there may not be any signs in the blood because all are mature. If you are wondering why a parasite would harm its host, it appears that these worms live on at least several days past the death of their host. If they aren't affected by the adverse effects of refrigeration and decay of the host, it's a reasonable guess that in the wild, they may live on to parasitize whatever eats the chameleon."
The "it appears" was a poor word choice. My vet did a necropsy after 2 days of death, and the worms were alive and well, even through refrigeration!
He consulted with a number of vets about this, and every one advised us to NOT use ivermectin, because the inflammatoy response of the dying worms would surely kill the patient. He felt the same reaction would result from any of the -ectin drugs.
An independent keeper advised that after several rounds of fenbendazole, low-dose ivermectin treatment in a group of melleri had a higher survival than death rate.
It is a bleak situation: if you do nothing, the worms will eventally kill it. If you use ivermectin, it may die from the inflammatory response. If you do endoscopic removal, it must be repeated for each adult cycle to remove the worms, and I was told that the "queen" breeding female worms are the most wily, hiding in deep tissues. That means multiple abdominal surgeries in an animal not exactly famous for recovery from abdominal surgeries, and the vet STILL can't guarantee that even a lone worm remaining won't chew through an artery eventually. Meanwhile, blood smears must be done regularly to make sure the worms aren't breeding. The egg and larval stages are bloodborne, hence the mosquito as a vehicle of transmission.
Personally, I am leaning towards the non-vet recommended fenbendazole rounds then low-dose ivermectin, but you'll want a vet on board to prescribe anti-inflammatories.
Fenbendazole is helpful in getting all the "background" parasite loads removed or reduced, in several treatments, before attempting to kill the Microfilaria with ivermectin.
From the Medical page of the MD:
"Most pet owners are familiar with heartworms in dogs, which are similar but less savage to their hosts. Microfilaria of the Foleyella family have subadult and adult stage worms that do not restrict themselves to the cardiovascular system. These worms burrow throughout the chameleon's body organs, and depending on where they go, can kill it slowly over years or suddenly by cutting an artery. There is conflicting opinion on whether or not Ivermectin is a good gamble for destroying these worms in WC captives. Some keepers use a system of several high doses of fenbendazole, followed by two low doses of ivermectin. Some veterinarians say that repeated surgical removals via endoscopy is the only safe option. The most frustrating part about WCs infected with Foleyella is that they can have clean fecals and appear in perfect health right before sudden death by a wayward worm. The only way to detect these worms, apart from a lucky ultrasound, is to do repeated blood smears over several weeks to catch any eggs and early stage worms in the blood, during each lifecycle. At some stages, there may not be any signs in the blood because all are mature. If you are wondering why a parasite would harm its host, it appears that these worms live on at least several days past the death of their host. If they aren't affected by the adverse effects of refrigeration and decay of the host, it's a reasonable guess that in the wild, they may live on to parasitize whatever eats the chameleon."
The "it appears" was a poor word choice. My vet did a necropsy after 2 days of death, and the worms were alive and well, even through refrigeration!
He consulted with a number of vets about this, and every one advised us to NOT use ivermectin, because the inflammatoy response of the dying worms would surely kill the patient. He felt the same reaction would result from any of the -ectin drugs.
An independent keeper advised that after several rounds of fenbendazole, low-dose ivermectin treatment in a group of melleri had a higher survival than death rate.
It is a bleak situation: if you do nothing, the worms will eventally kill it. If you use ivermectin, it may die from the inflammatory response. If you do endoscopic removal, it must be repeated for each adult cycle to remove the worms, and I was told that the "queen" breeding female worms are the most wily, hiding in deep tissues. That means multiple abdominal surgeries in an animal not exactly famous for recovery from abdominal surgeries, and the vet STILL can't guarantee that even a lone worm remaining won't chew through an artery eventually. Meanwhile, blood smears must be done regularly to make sure the worms aren't breeding. The egg and larval stages are bloodborne, hence the mosquito as a vehicle of transmission.
Personally, I am leaning towards the non-vet recommended fenbendazole rounds then low-dose ivermectin, but you'll want a vet on board to prescribe anti-inflammatories.
studiocham
New Member
A personal loss has pushed me to bump this thread and add some urgency to the care of imports.
In particular, if you own WC adult melleri, get their blood smear done, check for signs of microfilaria, at least once a year.
Several keepers here know that I had an up-and-coming breeding pair consisting of my homebred CB female and her WC mate that I raised from a 71g subadult. I had him for two years this past June, and was certain that he was clean, totally out of the woods. Surely, he was too small at export, too young, and too vivacious (wooing my female almost every day since last November) to have contracted Foleyella. He outlived my previous Foleyella victims by a solid year.
Incorrect assumption. A couple days before I had to go on a biz trip, I was finishing up some sculpts in the house, within view of the cham room walk-in cage. Usually, my female takes a mid-morning perch where she can watch me in the livingroom, and her mate takes the more UVB-exposed side, behind the 7' ficus, until either feeding or roosting time. Oddly, the male, in courtship colors, took up her perch and was staring (you know how they do) at me, which he never does. He doesn't like people, and this was, for him, suspicious behavior. The female perched right behind him, neither pressing him to move, nor distressed. I put down my work and went up to him, and noticed both of his eyes had sunken in since the morning check. This was a healthy, courting/breeding, fat-padded-skull adult male. It wasn't enough weirdness to run to the emergency vet, but it was enough that I felt something was just not right. He then turned down prey, which was odd. I showered him and his mate, but his eyes did not pop back out. I thought maybe he'd gotten something in them, and needed a good rinse, hence his not eating. He kept to the same visible side of the cage, and his color went from courtship color to the different "ill" pattern. The black blush started showing up. I could not figure out what could be affecting him so suddenly and so drastically. Poisoning? Spider bite? I picked him up, and his grip, as ever, was eyewatering. But his color just kept worsening, very, very quickly.
I recalled how the chams with Foleyella had spiralled just as suddenly, maintained their grips, and showed the same color. He passed away within hours of first moving to the unusual look-out perch and getting my attention. (Moving to an exposed perch to be ended quickly by a predator? Some thought, huh?)
I'm not condoning this, but sharing in the spirit of full disclosure: I had been preparing for my biggest trade show of the year, and could not delay nor miss it. I had refrigerated the body, in hopes I could take off a few hours and run it to my vet for a necropsy and histo, if deemed necessary. As my vet pointed out, when you find wads of Foleyella, a histo isn't really necessary. (No one else near here would do this errand for me, BTW.) This was one instance where I was 99.99999% certain of the cause of death. I knew this animal very well, over years, and I'd seen the same presentation of symptoms. The speed of his spiral was all too familiar.
I had to leave, so had to freeze his body so I could have it necropsied upon my return. I would be gone too long for anyone to dare open him later, if merely refrigerated. I do not suggest keepers freeze dead chameleons before having their vet do the nec and histopath. This was a move that was based on the biggest time pressure of my year, and an extremely firm notion of cause of death.
After defrosting him slowly in the refrigerator for a couple days, I finally found a time for the nec. Knowing a histo was now moot (from freezing process), I decided to do a gross nec myself. Anything apart from the anticipated, I could photo and run the body to my vet the next day for consult.
Turns out, it was microfilaria, indeed. The first sign was upon incision, blood poured out of the body cavity. In other causes of cham death, you won't see so much blood. An artery, and/or a major organ, has to be compromised for blood to fill the cavity. The organ tissue closest to my view had many tiny, pale white "threads" and bundles of threads. Some of the largest microfilaria were photographed separately from the body.
The first three pix are of this specimen.
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c126/studiocham/necropsy/
I suppose this is a "don't do what I did" post. Don't assume your WC is free of microfilaria, even if acquired as a juvenile or subadult. Get it checked, re-checked, and re-checked. Don't freeze a body before the vet sees it.
The sad postscript to this, for melleri at least, is the mate left behind. At first, she seemed unaware that he was missing from her cage. By the time I returned, she was staying at her mate's former day perch and sleeping in his roosting perch. Then, she went into full cage search mode, top to bottom, incessantly. She sucked her eyes in and went off feed, just patrolling, patrolling, patrolling, climbing screen. The only thing I could do to manage her was long showers, and try to get her eating again with exotic wild prey. I even showed her another male, and she charged him in full aggressive display, so she wasn't looking for just anyone. She was looking for her mate. If she's like her dam, it will be 30 days of adjusting to the loss.
I can't even put into words how much I hate this parasite.
In particular, if you own WC adult melleri, get their blood smear done, check for signs of microfilaria, at least once a year.
Several keepers here know that I had an up-and-coming breeding pair consisting of my homebred CB female and her WC mate that I raised from a 71g subadult. I had him for two years this past June, and was certain that he was clean, totally out of the woods. Surely, he was too small at export, too young, and too vivacious (wooing my female almost every day since last November) to have contracted Foleyella. He outlived my previous Foleyella victims by a solid year.
Incorrect assumption. A couple days before I had to go on a biz trip, I was finishing up some sculpts in the house, within view of the cham room walk-in cage. Usually, my female takes a mid-morning perch where she can watch me in the livingroom, and her mate takes the more UVB-exposed side, behind the 7' ficus, until either feeding or roosting time. Oddly, the male, in courtship colors, took up her perch and was staring (you know how they do) at me, which he never does. He doesn't like people, and this was, for him, suspicious behavior. The female perched right behind him, neither pressing him to move, nor distressed. I put down my work and went up to him, and noticed both of his eyes had sunken in since the morning check. This was a healthy, courting/breeding, fat-padded-skull adult male. It wasn't enough weirdness to run to the emergency vet, but it was enough that I felt something was just not right. He then turned down prey, which was odd. I showered him and his mate, but his eyes did not pop back out. I thought maybe he'd gotten something in them, and needed a good rinse, hence his not eating. He kept to the same visible side of the cage, and his color went from courtship color to the different "ill" pattern. The black blush started showing up. I could not figure out what could be affecting him so suddenly and so drastically. Poisoning? Spider bite? I picked him up, and his grip, as ever, was eyewatering. But his color just kept worsening, very, very quickly.
I recalled how the chams with Foleyella had spiralled just as suddenly, maintained their grips, and showed the same color. He passed away within hours of first moving to the unusual look-out perch and getting my attention. (Moving to an exposed perch to be ended quickly by a predator? Some thought, huh?)
I'm not condoning this, but sharing in the spirit of full disclosure: I had been preparing for my biggest trade show of the year, and could not delay nor miss it. I had refrigerated the body, in hopes I could take off a few hours and run it to my vet for a necropsy and histo, if deemed necessary. As my vet pointed out, when you find wads of Foleyella, a histo isn't really necessary. (No one else near here would do this errand for me, BTW.) This was one instance where I was 99.99999% certain of the cause of death. I knew this animal very well, over years, and I'd seen the same presentation of symptoms. The speed of his spiral was all too familiar.
I had to leave, so had to freeze his body so I could have it necropsied upon my return. I would be gone too long for anyone to dare open him later, if merely refrigerated. I do not suggest keepers freeze dead chameleons before having their vet do the nec and histopath. This was a move that was based on the biggest time pressure of my year, and an extremely firm notion of cause of death.
After defrosting him slowly in the refrigerator for a couple days, I finally found a time for the nec. Knowing a histo was now moot (from freezing process), I decided to do a gross nec myself. Anything apart from the anticipated, I could photo and run the body to my vet the next day for consult.
Turns out, it was microfilaria, indeed. The first sign was upon incision, blood poured out of the body cavity. In other causes of cham death, you won't see so much blood. An artery, and/or a major organ, has to be compromised for blood to fill the cavity. The organ tissue closest to my view had many tiny, pale white "threads" and bundles of threads. Some of the largest microfilaria were photographed separately from the body.
The first three pix are of this specimen.
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c126/studiocham/necropsy/
I suppose this is a "don't do what I did" post. Don't assume your WC is free of microfilaria, even if acquired as a juvenile or subadult. Get it checked, re-checked, and re-checked. Don't freeze a body before the vet sees it.
The sad postscript to this, for melleri at least, is the mate left behind. At first, she seemed unaware that he was missing from her cage. By the time I returned, she was staying at her mate's former day perch and sleeping in his roosting perch. Then, she went into full cage search mode, top to bottom, incessantly. She sucked her eyes in and went off feed, just patrolling, patrolling, patrolling, climbing screen. The only thing I could do to manage her was long showers, and try to get her eating again with exotic wild prey. I even showed her another male, and she charged him in full aggressive display, so she wasn't looking for just anyone. She was looking for her mate. If she's like her dam, it will be 30 days of adjusting to the loss.
I can't even put into words how much I hate this parasite.
chamlover
New Member
Thanks guys. Now i am absolutely terriefied for my guys. I have 2 w/c melleri and have never had their blood checked. 1 is the rescue i just got and he isn't even ready for a vet visit yet but my other one can be. I'm assuming this is a must do asap right? Are there ever any other symptoms that i should look for? Also as you might remember my vet isn't very knowledgeable about chams, is this something that any reptile vet should know? Or is there perhaps something i can share with him when i do bring him in for a check?
Thanks and I am so sorry for your loss Kristina.
Debby
P.S. Good news, Samson is doing well and continuing to improve daily. He is almost unrrecognizable from the sorry state in which i received him.
Thanks and I am so sorry for your loss Kristina.
Debby
P.S. Good news, Samson is doing well and continuing to improve daily. He is almost unrrecognizable from the sorry state in which i received him.
studiocham
New Member
T., they do wring out your heart, but the mate has it worse. I can't explain to her what happened. Her little lizard brain just has to work it out and adapt. I've been really careful about managing her, and today she has a very strong appetite. I let her eat as much as she wanted. I'm cautiously optimistic that I can get her past this, through oviposition, and back to normal.
It's something that should be done as soon as they have a good enough weight and overall condition to either take a caudal blood draw, or if a scab is present, open or knick it to get fresh blood for a smear. Here's the thing- one smear could be clean, and then the next could show filarid eggs or larvae. These parasites have a cycle, you may not find evidence every time.
As above, by the time symptoms show, the organs are so perforated, the animal is unlikely to recover. This is why blood draws and smears on WCs are necessary. These animals appear brilliantly healthy on all levels until hours before death.
Most reptile vets have some passing familiarity with blood-borne parasites, if not Foleyella specifically. Heartworm in domestics is also a filarid, and also responsive to ivermectin, so that's a springboard for your conversation. My vet had to consult with other herp vets to come to his treatment option. I have a friend whose vet knows Mader, so I'm hoping to soon have another option for two WC ladies here.
I'm glad to hear Sampson has improved. It's a good feeling to see a sad cham become strong and sleek, and do those huuuuge rolling yawns in the morning.
It's something that should be done as soon as they have a good enough weight and overall condition to either take a caudal blood draw, or if a scab is present, open or knick it to get fresh blood for a smear. Here's the thing- one smear could be clean, and then the next could show filarid eggs or larvae. These parasites have a cycle, you may not find evidence every time.
As above, by the time symptoms show, the organs are so perforated, the animal is unlikely to recover. This is why blood draws and smears on WCs are necessary. These animals appear brilliantly healthy on all levels until hours before death.
Most reptile vets have some passing familiarity with blood-borne parasites, if not Foleyella specifically. Heartworm in domestics is also a filarid, and also responsive to ivermectin, so that's a springboard for your conversation. My vet had to consult with other herp vets to come to his treatment option. I have a friend whose vet knows Mader, so I'm hoping to soon have another option for two WC ladies here.
I'm glad to hear Sampson has improved. It's a good feeling to see a sad cham become strong and sleek, and do those huuuuge rolling yawns in the morning.
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