few questions

[bylee2009]

i cant put a pic up yet, will when i get home but im wondering if its possible for a veiled to get bit from insects, i noticed a very small black scab looking spot on him the other day and have no idea where it came from, also noticed his feet has some discolouration almost like it was going to shed and didnt, hes suffering from MBD and I cant get him to a vet...hes been very lethargic and sleeping often during the day or atleast one eye shut, hes always falling over on his side and cant stay up in his branches, really hoping somerone out there has some advice seeing as ive posted about this before and gotten NO response

 

[BeBoSON]

Crickets do sometimes bite your chameleon, leaving those little dark spots. Don't leave feeders in over night.
As far as MBD, what lights are you currently using. What's the size of your enclosure?

 

[lumbasammler]

This does sound very very bad...
Why can´t you take him to a vet?
What supplements and lighting do you use?
I think you american guys do not have the right idea when it comes to both of these things. This is my conclusion considering the appearingly huge number of sick chams in the US. In my opinion you use way too "weak" UV-Bulbs and way too less supplementation.
The thing with the linear UV tubes and Vitamins only twice a month may work for those who live in the warm regions and can keep their cham outside all year long or at least for a lot of time, but people in cooler regions do it the same way and i guess that´s where a lot of trouble comes from.
How´s the climate in Ontario?

 

[bylee2009]

he got his mbd like 3 4 months ago i cant tell u exact names (my husband gets all that) but up until little under 2 weeks ago it seems to b acting up again on him, ive changed his calcium to without d3 daily and with d3 2 times a month he was doing great seemed to get little better grip in his front hands and was eating ands drinking fine (eating less then a healthy chameleon but still eating) i dont know whats to do for him i feel terrible

 

[bylee2009]

This does sound very very bad...
Why can´t you take him to a vet?
What supplements and lighting do you use?
I think you american guys do not have the right idea when it comes to both of these things. This is my conclusion considering the appearingly huge number of sick chams in the US. In my opinion you use way too "weak" UV-Bulbs and way too less supplementation.
The thing with the linear UV tubes and Vitamins only twice a month may work for those who live in the warm regions and can keep their cham outside all year long or at least for a lot of time, but people in cooler regions do it the same way and i guess that´s where a lot of trouble comes from.
How´s the climate in Ontario?

"Americans"? Im Canadian first off LOL second, i cant take him to a vet cuz i dont have a vehicle right now n its 2 hrs awayive been working on this for months with him now and he was doing fine, it is getting colder here in Ontario but ive kept the temp in the reptile room warm for that reason. his temps and humidity are fine and he was drinking and eating pretty well before 2 weeks ago just looking for what i can do to help

 

[lumbasammler]

"Americans"? Im Canadian first off LOL second, i cant take him to a vet cuz i dont have a vehicle right now n its 2 hrs awayive been working on this for months with him now and he was doing fine, it is getting colder here in Ontario but ive kept the temp in the reptile room warm for that reason. his temps and humidity are fine and he was drinking and eating pretty well before 2 weeks ago just looking for what i can do to help

Well But that´s exactly the problem i was referring to you see?
Unfortunately MBD can not be reversed, but it can be stopped.
If you want to try it, i may tell you how we in Germany handle lighting and supplementation, maybe it´ll help him but ir will not be cheap.

 

[eeekroar]

"Americans"? Im Canadian first off LOL

haha!
I'm sure it's just a North American thing then. You know how we are!

 

[kinyonga]

How did you know it was MBD to begin with?
What did you do to correct it? They need extra calcium to bring the balance back and then once you get things in balance again it needs to be kept there. The quickest way to get a chameleon back on track is for a vet to give it injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin (which draws the calcium rapidly back into the bones). You can also give it calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate in liquid form but it won't recover as fast. You still need to make sure that the chameleon gets UVB. You said he's sitting on the floor of the cage...is he still within range of the UVB light?

In case I didn't give it to you already....
Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects (crickets, locusts, silkworms, superworms, tomato worms, phoenix worms, butter worms, once in a while waxworms, etc.) that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[lumbasammler]

How did you know it was MBD to begin with?
What did you do to correct it? They need extra calcium to bring the balance back and then once you get things in balance again it needs to be kept there. The quickest way to get a chameleon back on track is for a vet to give it injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin (which draws the calcium rapidly back into the bones). You can also give it calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate in liquid form but it won't recover as fast. You still need to make sure that the chameleon gets UVB. You said he's sitting on the floor of the cage...is he still within range of the UVB light?

In case I didn't give it to you already....
Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects (crickets, locusts, silkworms, superworms, tomato worms, phoenix worms, butter worms, once in a while waxworms, etc.) that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

I don´t know but... do you ever react on any comment?

 

[okiroo]

This does sound very very bad...
Why can´t you take him to a vet?
What supplements and lighting do you use?
I think you american guys do not have the right idea when it comes to both of these things. This is my conclusion considering the appearingly huge number of sick chams in the US. In my opinion you use way too "weak" UV-Bulbs and way too less supplementation.
The thing with the linear UV tubes and Vitamins only twice a month may work for those who live in the warm regions and can keep their cham outside all year long or at least for a lot of time, but people in cooler regions do it the same way and i guess that´s where a lot of trouble comes from.
How´s the climate in Ontario?

i dont really think its the UVB and supplements that causes us to have "more" sick chams. i think its more the lack of knowledge and will to learn or even care. people who come here care enough to learn and hopefully help their chams but usually its not their fault, just bad pet store information. Are their alot of cham owners in Germany?



to the op- when you can please post pictures. it is very possible for bugs to bite one of the forum members had a pygmy whos eye got eaten out from crikets.

 

[lumbasammler]

i dont really think its the UVB and supplements that causes us to have "more" sick chams. i think its more the lack of knowledge and will to learn or even care. people who come here care enough to learn and hopefully help their chams but usually its not their fault, just bad pet store information. Are their alot of cham owners in Germany?

The petstores around here are as incompetent as yours. They´d tell people nearly anything to make them buy. There are quite some cham owners around here, though not as many as in this forums. I just always feel like there are a hell of lot new thread calle like "Help, chameleon about to die/sick/angry" which i see only rarely in the german forums

 

[kinyonga]

Lumbasammler said..."I don´t know but... do you ever react on any comment?"...what do you mean????

You said..."The thing with the linear UV tubes and Vitamins only twice a month may work for those who live in the warm regions and can keep their cham outside all year long or at least for a lot of time, but people in cooler regions do it the same way and i guess that´s where a lot of trouble comes from.
How´s the climate in Ontario?"...I live in Ontario and my chameleons and other reptiles do well with the supplementing and UVB I described in my post above. My veiled females live to be over 6 years of age...some over 7 years and the males even longer, for example.

 

[lumbasammler]

"I don´t know but... do you ever react on any comment?"...what do you mean????

Just that i would´ve liked to get a statement about what you think of the things that have already been said

I live in Ontario and my chameleons and other reptiles do well with the supplementing and UVB I described in my post above. My veiled females live to be over 6 years of age...some over 7 years and the males even longer, for example.

Hmmm, that makes me curious. Maybe your supplements are a lot different from the ones used around here? As i wrote above we use a lot more UVB and supplements so there should be a difference in the life span shouldn´t it?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Hmmm, that makes me curious. Maybe your supplements are a lot different from the ones used around here? As i wrote above we use a lot more UVB and supplements so there should be a difference in the life span shouldn´t it? "...I'm sure the supplements here are different from the ones you have where you live...and its likely that if you don't compare what I give them to what you give them the amounts will differ...however, what I try to do is provide them with enough to ensure that along with what they get from light and food they will be healthy. IMHO you have to watch that there are places in their cages that they can move to so that they will/can be out of the UVB if they want to and to be careful of the fat soluble vitamins.

Are you saying that chameleons living where you live should die sooner because you give them more UVB and supplements or that ours should??


You said..."Just that i would´ve liked to get a statement about what you think of the things that have already been said"...quote the parts that you think I should have commented on please.

 

[lumbasammler]

Hi,

Are you saying that chameleons living where you live should die sooner because you give them more UVB and supplements or that ours should??

That´s just what i´m wondering about. Obviously both methods seem to work in some way although they are completely different.

 

[kinyonga]

How long do veiled females live for instance, where you live?
Maybe we should make a new thread rather than horn into this one?

 

[lumbasammler]

I know a person which keeps a female veiled which is kept this way for about 7-8 years by now and she´s still fit.
Maybe a new thread would be a good idea, but i think that it will kind of be too much input for me to react on as there are a huge number of american keepers around but only few german/european members.

 

[bylee2009]

i dont really think its the UVB and supplements that causes us to have "more" sick chams. i think its more the lack of knowledge and will to learn or even care. people who come here care enough to learn and hopefully help their chams but usually its not their fault, just bad pet store information. Are their alot of cham owners in Germany?



to the op- when you can please post pictures. it is very possible for bugs to bite one of the forum members had a pygmy whos eye got eaten out from crikets.

thank you!!!!!! Im not a bad pet owner and over the last 6 months i have done a crazy amount of research on chameleons.... Im just trying to do everything i can for him, he will not eat no matter what i try n when i try to open his mouth it almost seems like its hurting him i dont know what to do anymore im running out of ideas he wont eat or drink now, someone please gimme some helpful info as to what to do

 

[bylee2009]

pics of Jose's bite and arm

here is a picture of Jose's head ( the bite) and his arm they arent they greatest quality i can only take them from my phone

 

[bylee2009]

he is very dehydrated right now ive tried to force feed him water but it seems like its hurting him so im scared to force feed him :s im very worried about him he really isnt doing well, his colour is faiding he looks almost pale and very very tired all he does is sleep in the bottom of his cage anyh advice is MUCH appreciated,
thank you