Female Panther chameleon egg laying problems

[kjanddf]

What concerns you about the eggs, is it the way they have formed or the size etc? Have you got any suggestions as to what I should do, should I return to the vet and ask about surgery to remove these eggs or is it too early for this?

 

[kinyonga]

As I said, I'm not a vet but the shape of the eggs and the little dark marks that seem to be on them bother me....but they might be bug parts in the digestive tract. I just re-read what Dayna had to say and hadn't thought about that possibility.

Dayna is a vet and I would definitely go with what she has to say about it all.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Thank you so so much!!!! I have phoned round all vets here and none have the experience to help me. She is lethargic just now and I am having to lift her up to her basking spot each day as her front legs seem to have weakened, however she is still eating drinking and pooping.

If she's not able to crawl around on her own then I would be very worried. If it were me I would want to take her to surgery now. I didn't realize she was that weak. As she gets weaker the surgery becomes more risky because her body is under so much stress. I would start calling around to find a vet that could do the surgery...

 

[kjanddf]

Thanks for your reply, daisy is still able to move about and is crawling around all over her viv, however her front legs and grip seem to have weakened causing her to fall off of her vines etc.

Is it likely that she will be able to lay the eggs on her own if she carries on like this or should I try and organise a vet to carry out the surgery.

The vet I spoke to said that the surgery would be very risky and should only be carried out as a last resort.

I am sorry for asking so many questions and am very grateful for all your replies, I just want to make sure I am doing everything I possibly can for her.

 

[kjanddf]

If you think that I should contact the vet regarding the surgery I will do that this morning when I finish work (it's only 4am here and I am on night shift).

With the eggs at the stage they are in the x Ray I attached how long would I have to wait to see if she lays them naturally, should I hold off?

 

[KrazyZen]

Are you sure it's a female cuz it doesn't matter if they never mated with a male since they will lay eggs regardless just like chicken hens and must be given something to dig and lay it's egg or it can be fatal and die not being able to lay the eggs. it is recommended that even at 6 months to provide a egg laying container since they can become gravid when it's still young. and for it to just produce eggs after a few years is very strange. but if it is gravid and you haven't yet provide it a place to lay then thats why she is always down probably looking for a place to lay them. also if it does have a place to lay make sure to give her a lot of privacy you'll know if it has done it or not cuz she will mostlikely have dirt on her face and body and will appear weak so make sure to provide her food and other boosts and of course hydrated after it's done laying.

 

[kjanddf]

She is 100% female, you will see that from the recent picture I posted along with the x Ray pictute clearly showing eggs.

I have a laying bin in her viv filled with a moist soil and sand mixture.

 

[KrazyZen]

sadly it sounds like it's egg bound which happens sometimes with large clutches i wish you and daisy good luck with the egg removal hopefully you'll have some good news to share with us after.

 

[kjanddf]

Thank you so much for your advice and kind words, I will update any news on here.... Fingers crossed!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you so much for your advice and kind words, I will update any news on here.... Fingers crossed!

I'm sorry your girl is not well. Please take the advice of the vets, of which two have looked at your girl's x-rays. Ferretsinmyshoes is a vet and has posted a couple of times to your thread.

Does your vet think her current problems are related to reproductive issues? Is it possible she is ill with something unrelated to eggs?

Surgery on a weak animal, especially a chameleon, does not always end well. Think carefully and weigh the risks before you send her to surgery.

There are all kinds of other reproductive problems egg-laying animals get into besides dystocia (difficulty in laying eggs). If the vets thinks the eggs are not developed enough to be laid, I find it hard to believe she is suffering from egg binding.

Good luck. I know you are frantic wanting to help her.

 

[kjanddf]

Well things looking much better today managed to get Daisy to have a big drink of water then mushed up some meal worms, locusts and calcium and fed it to her slowly in a syringe.... She gobbled it up then seemed to be full of energy and carried on hunting and eating locusts for the rest of the day and basking a lot.

She definately seems to have perked up so I am gonna keep doing this daily and see if she makes any attempt to lay the eggs herself, if not then I have found a suitable vet to carry out the surgery.

 

[KrazyZen]

ya i apologize for that was being stupid and lazy and didn't read the full thread like i normally do and didn't know know they were not developed yet otherwise i wouldn't have said that but ya it's probably best to just stick to viewing the classifieds and leave the advise giving to qualified members anyways good luck with her and i better go and get my r/o system in working order with my misting set up so i can also hang outside with them and enjoy a cold one when it's done. later

 

[kjanddf]

No need to apologise, I appreciate everybody's advice in here regardless. Daisy still eating and drinking well today and seems to be getting much stronger so fingers crossed she will be fine

 

[kjanddf]

Can anybody advise me from the size of the eggs in Daisy's X-ray along with the fact that they haven't yet formed shells how long roughly she should lay them from now?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If the vets thinks the eggs are not developed enough to be laid, I find it hard to believe she is suffering from egg binding.

'Egg binding', or dystocia, is just a general term for the inability to lay eggs normally, which can be due to a variety of reasons. 'Pre-ovulatory follicular stasis' means that the follicles that should turn to eggs never do. They remain in the follicular stage indefinitely unable to progress to the next step. Thus, because they never become shelled eggs they can never be laid. This is still considered egg binding since they are unable to lay eggs. Since the eggs are not shelled oxytocin and medical management will not have an effect. Surgery is the only option to remove them as persistent follicles will cause inflammation and ceolomitis or infection.

Unfortunately there is not a good way to determine how much longer the follicles would need to rule out stasis without knowing how long they've been there. There aren't enough studies to determine size or gestation date based on radiographic appearance or size of follicles. The average gestation of a veiled is about a month. I did weekly X-rays on my Panther female to try to get some idea of how the eggs progress. I could see follicles 2-3 weeks before they were laid. So if clinical symptoms have persisted that long already they should be farther along. If not you can give them more time but you'd have to do X-rays every week or two to monitor their progress. Also you have to pair that with any other clinical signs such as weight, appetite, attitude, activity, etc.

 

[kjanddf]

Once again thank you so much for taking the time to post an answer for me, I read on here that you lost your own female Panther very recently and I can understand exactly what you must have went through, which makes me even more grateful that you take the time to answer me.

I have arranged for another x Ray to be carried out this week and I will post the picture on here again, I will have to decide from there wether surgery is the best option or not. I just don't want to make the wrong choice and loose her

She is still eating, drinking and pooping and I am giving her liquid calcium and vitamins etc but and she still moves around her viv but seems to loose grip or balance occasionally and this is a worry.

Thanks again for your help, and I am so sorry to hear about your own loss.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Thank you. Even when I can do all the testing and treatment that's needed my female still died for egg binding. Even after successfully laying her eggs. When I did her necropsy afterward they only thing that was abnormal was her fat pads were shrunken down to basically nothing. Even though I waited and she was eating like normal she was depleting her reserves because of the toll on her body. I don't like recommending surgery in all cases because of the risks involved but it's a fine line between waiting too long to do the surgery so they're weaker and less likely to make a recovery and waiting to try to avoid surgery altogether. Without seeing her in person of course I really can't say one way or the other. But the signs to watch for are weakness, lethargy, inappetance, sunken in eyes. It doesn't take long once those start for them to go downhill very fast even if you do everything you can. There can be other causes for some of those symptoms which makes it challenging to interpret them. So it's hard to say exactly what your course of action should be from this far away. But I wish you and her the very best that she makes a full recovery however it happens!

 

[kjanddf]

Thank you we need more vets like you in scotland that can offer advice and solutions to worried reptile owners.

I will keep you posted regarding the second X-ray and what we decide from there, your advice so far has been invaluable and greatly appreciated.

 

[kjanddf]

Second X-ray results

I have attached the results from Daisy's second X-ray that she had yesterday, can anybody advise if it looks like the eggs have developed any from the first X-ray or are still at the same stage.

If they don't look to be developing then I will take her in for surgery this week.....any advice?

 

[kjanddf]

Hi,

The previously attached second x Ray was incorrect and the same as the first one...llapologies I have now attached the most recent image from this week.... Any advice?