Female life span

[ataraxia]

I would like to know the life span of a female that produces eggs to a female that does not. From time to time i see advice of trying to keep a female from laying and that egg laying shortens life span...Im trying to understand this. Under normal breeding conditions with typical amount of eggs, frequency and proper nutrition. How much does this really take off life?

Are we just using common sense from our lack of knowledge and saying that producing eggs draws nutrients which is hard on the body? Or has this been really proven to be correct?

Please no repeating what you have read. I would like to hear actual experiences or if you have links to case studies. I would greatly appreciate any information.

Edit: Sorry, this was suppose to be under general discussion.

 

[laurie]

It is difficult to know that egg laying was the cause of a female dying earlier. I have had both panther and veileds where a female who layed several clutches and laid more eggs per clutch died at an earlier age, than another female of the same age who had less clutches. The problem is, I don't know what other health factors may have contributed to any of them. I guess the real answer is I don't have any good info to offer.

 

[Captive Creations]

I have been wondering this myself. I am going to keep an eye on this. thanks for posting it!!

 

[Dynasty]

Good Question..

I've been wondering this myself as well. I have a male jackson who's about a year and a half old. But in another cage is a female that I recently got. I was wondering the same thing as you. Poor girl still seems scared and anti social. She'll warm up to me though

 

[laurie]

I've been wondering this myself as well. I have a male jackson who's about a year and a half old. But in another cage is a female that I recently got. I was wondering the same thing as you. Poor girl still seems scared and anti social. She'll warm up to me though

Are they where they can't see each other? That will help with the settling in process. reducing stress any way you can is the best, so making sure they can't see each other will help.

 

[ataraxia]

The problem is, I don't know what other health factors may have contributed to any of them.

Any noticeable health issues you can remember?

 

[laurie]

Any noticeable health issues you can remember?

One female had a prolapse later but that is all I remember. We are talking a few years back. My record don't show any problems.

 

[sandrachameleon]

panther females

In my experience, those that I bred three times didnt last as long as those bred only once or not at all. The difference is at least one year but it may not be statistically significant and my "sample size" is limited.

Nevertheless, as I am a pet keeper more than a breeder, I will never again bred a female more than once, or at most twice if special circumstances. And I do my best to bring egg production to a hault (or not start at all) unless breeding. The longest I've kept a female without her starting egg production was three years (at which point I wanted to breed her). The longest I've been able to keep a panther from cycling infertile eggs once she starts egg production is now ~14 months and increasing - but some panther females dont seem to stop or even slow once started no matter what.

I think with veileds you'll find there is more difference and more "control".

 

[Dynasty]

Are they where they can't see each other? That will help with the settling in process. reducing stress any way you can is the best, so making sure they can't see each other will help.

No they both have their own terrarium in a different rooms. I make sure to take them out into the actual sun separately so they don't meet eachother. Anything else I could do?

 

[jannb]

In my experience, those that I bred three times didnt last as long as those bred only once or not at all. The difference is at least one year but it may not be statistically significant and my "sample size" is limited.

Nevertheless, as I am a pet keeper more than a breeder, I will never again bred a female more than once, or at most twice if special circumstances. And I do my best to bring egg production to a hault (or not start at all) unless breeding. The longest I've kept a female without her starting egg production was three years (at which point I wanted to breed her). The longest I've been able to keep a panther from cycling infertile eggs once she starts egg production is now ~14 months and increasing - but some panther females dont seem to stop or even slow once started no matter what.

I think with veileds you'll find there is more difference and more "control".

Sandra, you are an A+ keeper in my book.

I hope that Lynda (kinyonga) sees this thread. She has more experience with this than the rest of us.

 

[Miss Lily]

When I got my first female (Lily) back in 2008 I was told to feed her as much as she wanted, plus I kept her warmer. She laid her first infertile clutch at 14 months old followed by her second at 18 months old. Both clutches were over 100 eggs each. Sadly, she died a month after that second clutch. By comparison, I always kept Amy cooler (82-83 at most) and fed her less (which she did naturally herself at 6 months old). She didn't lay her first clutch until she was 20 months old, back in November 2010. That was her only clutch and when she had x rays back in January this year there were no signs of a clutch developing, not even the early stages. Sadly, she passed away at the weekend at the good age of 3 years old, bless her. I am now a firm believer in keeping females cooler and feeding less. Amy lived twice as long as Lily did, and I am sure that the way she was kept contributed to her longer life with me.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I would like to know the life span of a female that produces eggs to a female that does not"... and... "Under normal breeding conditions with typical amount of eggs, frequency and proper nutrition. How much does this really take off life?"...I wish I could give you an answer to that....but I have never bred females repeatedly/constantly. I have one now and she is soon going to be 5 and has likely produced 6 infertile clutches (not sure).

You said..."Are we just using common sense from our lack of knowledge and saying that producing eggs draws nutrients which is hard on the body? Or has this been really proven to be correct?"..I don't think anyone has done a study to prove it. All I can tell you is that many/most of my female veileds live to be over 6 including ones that have produced a few clutches (both fertile and infertile).

 

[sandrachameleon]

Sandra, you are an A+ keeper in my book.

thank you! that means alot coming from you!

 

[jannb]

You said..."I would like to know the life span of a female that produces eggs to a female that does not"... and... "Under normal breeding conditions with typical amount of eggs, frequency and proper nutrition. How much does this really take off life?"...I wish I could give you an answer to that....but I have never bred females repeatedly/constantly. I have one now and she is soon going to be 5 and has likely produced 6 infertile clutches (not sure).

You said..."Are we just using common sense from our lack of knowledge and saying that producing eggs draws nutrients which is hard on the body? Or has this been really proven to be correct?"..I don't think anyone has done a study to prove it. All I can tell you is that many/most of my female veileds live to be over 6 including ones that have produced a few clutches (both fertile and infertile).

Lynda, You have the longest lived chameleons on the forums. You have definitely got chameleon keeping down pat. I sure wish I could have keep my little girls for 6 years. My girls all passed before 4 years old but none to egg problems. All had laid at least one clutch of eggs. I'm happy to see that you now have another female to work with.

 

[DekuScrub]

I am now a firm believer in keeping females cooler and feeding less.

in my experience females (panthers and veileds) ive kept breeding on a regular basis dont tend to last as long as males.

mind you i havent kept many males till death they tend to last 6-7 (one male veiled was nearly nine but i was hand feeding him, watering him and giving him occasional injections for almost the last year of his life. just prolonging the inevitable) most of my male breeders i would sell off in their prime, or when their mate died.

females on the otherhand tended only to last 3-4 years and either by egg issues or seeming deterioration of health due to stresses of breeding. it wasnt until i had one female veiled popping out ridiculously large clutches regularly end up with edema that i began cutting back on food and keeping females a bit cooler than males. overall it seemed to help, less time recuperating after laying, longer lifespans, and less incidents of illness (though this may also have been attributed to me gaining more knowledge and becoming a more experienced keeper.) its hard to tell what the exact factors are when you arent simply making a study of that one aspect. too many variables, to make assumptions.

still it seems cutting back on volume of food and keeping their metabolisms moving a tad slower helps prolong life. but at the same time i could see this backfiring if its not balanced properly.

and as far as sapping nutrients goes? id say its likely considering the proven effects of pregnancy on other animals. and the sheer volume of eggs a veiled can put out.

just my opinion though, hope that helps

 

[sandrachameleon]

Deku - good thoughts.

I think the age of the female when she is producing eggs may also be a factor. A very young animal may suffer if she would be trying to both grow herself and grow eggs. An old animal may be experiencing a natural loss of bone coupled with egg production (this is based on no evidence or study whatsoever - Im just thinking of the effect of making babies on older women and what that can do to their bones even with supplemental calcium etc).

 

[kinyonga]

DekuScrub said..."still it seems cutting back on volume of food and keeping their metabolisms moving a tad slower helps prolong life. but at the same time i could see this backfiring if its not balanced properly"...this IMHO is a big part of the problem....keeping things balanced...especially when they produce large clutches.

Jann said..."You have the longest lived chameleons on the forums. You have definitely got chameleon keeping down pat"...I've heard of some that have lived longer. I may have a good handle on veileds and a few other chameleons, but there are still ones that I know I would still struggle with if I had them...but thanks for the vote of confidence anyhow Jann!