Feedback please :)

[FFSTRescue]

Good for you for coming to this forum to find answers, I think this is one of the best ways to research how to care for your new chameleon. We all have to start somewhere
It is very frustrating when pet stores say they have an "exotic animal veterinarian" that checks on their animals. Every time they say that, I ask for the name of the vet, and surprisingly, they try to change the subject and end up writing the name of any vet down. I have followed up with vets with some pet stores, and they have nothing to do with those stores. One time, a pet store told me they work with the veterinarian that I worked for at the time! She was livid when I told her they were using her name. So for anyone that is reading this, very, very few pet stores actually have a vet that checks on their animals. If they do, it is usually a vet that gives their information to the store to refer their customers to.

 

[SpinyFranky]

Lucie,

While it may be hard to take in, I highly suggest leaving this chameleon to fate and continuing with research that will eventually lead to purchasing a captive bred chameleon for a site sponsor or other reliable source.

From what I saw in those pictures, that chameleon is extremely weak looking I think may be showing signs of MBD and is dehydrated - to top it off she looks gravid and will in my opinion not survive laying eggs. Most forums members are kosher enough not to be frank, but laying on the bottom of the cage with sunken eyes and weak skinny legs is most usually the chameleon death sentence.

Take it from one who has done exactly what you are thinking about doing right now, it will not end as you hope/idealize. Attachment is the hardest thing to break and I totally understand how you can be attached already - the same happened to me.

Even if you take in this chameleon, your enclosure will never be suitable for this chameleons needs, and will require some purchases to get it up to snuff. Remember we are not even sure if the chameleon can survive, let alone will survive egg laying.

I know the petstore rescue idea can be highly idealized and praised, but its not a good route, believe me. Feel free the P.M me on these forums and I can help as best I can, as others have surely already started doing.

S.F

 

[kinyonga]

Not trying to beat up on you...just make you aware of some things...it will help even if you end up with another chameleon instead of Lucie.

You said..."she has the yellow spots and has been lethargically laying on the ground of her enclosure at the pet store lately"...it might be that she is eggbound. I can't be sure but from this description and the look of her in the pictures I suspect it. She also looks like she is fairly old. I don't know if a vet could save her or not....but a good vet should be able to tell you if this is true.

Regarding supplements...Its important to dust the insects before feeding them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for the usually poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most feeder insects.

Its recommended to lightly dust them twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. This ensures that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it and leaving it to produce the rest from its exposure to UVB light. (The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic.) D3 from supplements can build up in the system but as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB D3 produced from exposure to UVB should be regulated by the chameleon.

Its also recommended to dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Beta carotene won't build up in the system, but there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert it so some people give a little prEformed once in a while. Excess prEformed vitamin A may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD so don't overdo it.

Generally its not a good idea to use ice cubes as a water source. A simple dripper made from a tall deli cup with a tiny hole in the bottom should be fine in addition to the misting.

Being that you are in Florida it would be best if you used a screen cage but it sounds like your house is quite cool (74F) so the glass might be okay...but a glass cage should definitely not be used outside.

The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear Reptisun 5.0 fluorescent tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and even some of the other tube lights have been known to cause problems, but this one has not had bad reports yet. For basking, a regular incandescent household bulb in a hood is fine...but for female veileds, it only needs to produce a temperature in the low 80's.

The downsides to plastic plants is that they do nothing to help the humidity and since veiled chameleons eat plant leaves, they might try to eat them and if successful, it would lead to impaction.

If she can be helped healthwise, it would be nice for her to be in a good home like you seem to want to provide...but it would be best for you to know what you are getting into if you take her on too. If she has the problems we suspect, she will need a good vet.

 

[FFSTRescue]

This is just my opinion, take it lightly or however you want to take it, but I guarantee that if you acquire her, you will give her better care than what she is getting at the pet store, and her last few days will be better. She is most likely not going to survive long, especially with customers (perceived predators) walking up to her cage and staring at her, which will quickly lead to her demise. She most likely won't survive long even if you do take her (not to sound negative, but of all the chameleons that I have treated that were sitting at the bottom of their cage with sunken eyes, very few survived, and those who did usually died later of renal failure or total system organ failure). So by the word "acquire", I mean that you really need to get the store to surrender her to you, or at least sell her to you at the cost they paid for her. You don't want them to make a profit from her sale because it is going to make them think they can profit from chameleon sales, obtain more, and because their care is apparently poor at that facility, they will most likely die. I know people are saying not to acquire her probably because they don't want this pet store to profit from this, and they don't want to perpetuate the cycle of these pet stores selling sick animals that these stores know nothing about, and they don't want you to be out the money, but if they can at least surrender her to you, then she will be better off, even though you are not an experienced chameleon owner, because you are trying your best and will give her better care than they. If they will not give you a price break so that they do not make a profit, I would unfortunately just leave her there so that another chameleon does not suffer in the future in her place. However, if they are willing to surrender her to you, I would take her and care for her the ways everyone on here is telling you, because I highly doubt a chameleon expert is going to walk into the store and purchase her before she dies. Just my opinion, I have rescued many reptiles from pet stores, getting them to surrender the animal to me instead of them making a profit, because I didn't want that animal's last few days to be terrifying, and for those animals that surprisingly did survive with extensive medical intervention, it was well worth it.

 

[skully23]

I personally think she should take her "free" or for a little money. With a first chameleon you will gain experience and learn that females are hard. I would rather see this cham be put in her hands then stay at the store..being watched...and die from her eggs and stress. She has us to help her be directed in the right direction with this female until she gets it and becomes experienced. Its like giving a first grader a problem they have never tried..with a little experienced help...They will gain experience and it will be easier next time.

If she does die..I am sorry but atleast she will die in a peaceful place and with less stress.. Just keep asking and get her right away. Make sure you do everything everyone has suggested...defintly the warm shower and covering her cage so she can lay..
Good luck

 

[SpinyFranky]

as FFSTrescue and skully pointed out, many of us forum members will always advise against buying from a petstore that maltreats animals (whether intentionally or unintentionally).

In this scenario my advice would be that if you must have the chameleon, approach the store owner and tell her what we are telling you - I would even bring a print out of the last three pages for reference. Tell the owner that the animal is dying and that you would be willing to assist in its recovery - but that they must adopt the animal out to you ( no sales, no tax, no nothing ).

I would then immediately take the animal to a vet for a fluid and vitamin injection, otherwise this chameleon has no chance to survive laying eggs.

Note that it will probably have MBD as well and will need to be rehabilitated, and if the MBD is severe enough, the animal will usually never walk the same way it did again. Some don't get to walk at all, they crawl.

At the end (within the X number of days you usually get to return an animal) you should take all the vet expenses to this store owner and ask for compensation - after all they are the ones that made the animal so sick.

Buying for ignorant petstores is never a good route to go, not for chameleons but any animal in general. I have no problem getting food/crickets from them, but I would never buy an animal from them again. Its usually best to buy one from a reputable breeder- such as one that supports these forums, as they are most usually the best source you could choose to get a chameleon from.

S.F

 

[Lucie]

another update...

Well, the vet came in and checked Lucie out this morning and gave her a clean bill of health. Not gravid, not sick, nothing wrong. Apparently the colors are her "natural colors". I am quite confused. This vet is a reputable vet, he is on this list of recommended herp vets in FL (http://www.anapsid.org/vets/florida.html) and I'm going to call him on Friday when he's in his office to talk to him more. The store owner wouldn't give me a refund because she said she paid for the vet to come out and there wasn't anything wrong with Lucie. She said she'd let me take another chameleon if I preferred, but I've gotten attached to Lucie so I had her sign a 30-day guarantee on her and I took Lucie home. Palpated Lucie's abdomen, I don't feel any eggs.

Lucie kept closing her eyes in the car, looked like she was sleeping? Not sure. I went home, put her in the 100 gal TANK (sorry, pet stores near here don't have those special screened enclosures I keep hearing about... will have to wait until after we move this weekend). I put a huge pothos in the middle of the tank, a 1.5' square flower pot of moist play sand (even tho the vet says she's not pregnant... idk), a heat bulb, a Reptisun 5.0 bulb, branches & leaves everywhere, bark, it's srsly like a crazy jungle in there. I must have sprayed Lucie with warm water for like 45 min. It rained outside today too and I put her outside on my bonzai tree for 15 min to get rained on, which she liked (NO, she did not eat the leaves lol). We got 30 crickets, calcium powder (no phos), a bunch of mealworms & waxworms. Got a water dripper. Put Lucie in on a branch after the raining outside, sprayed her some more, she looks like she's sleeping but she moves when I spray her. She's in the middle now, under a blacklight w. eyes closed. If she was dead she wouldn't be gripping the branches anymore, so I figure she must still be alive... Left the UV & heat lamp on so she can warm up overnight, taped a black garbage bag to the front outside so she's got the privacy going on... Hope I wake up in the morning & she's alive.

So that's where we are now. Still think she's gravid/eggbound with bone disease and all? Could you tell me why so I can bring it up to the vet on Friday? I think she just poofed up in my earlier pictures b/c of all the ppl interacting w. her at the store... look at the attached photo to see how she looked on the tree outside where she had her rain shower... Let me know what you all think and thanks so much for all your help. I know I'm mostly clueless but hey I'm trying...

 

[Julirs]

Yes she still looks dehydrated, but it is good news that she is not gravid. I hope you have a good digital thermometer so that you know what your temps are. I would make sure for now in the glass tank that the basking spot is about 85 degrees. Please turn off the lights and heat at night. Chams need darkness and a temp drop to be healthy. Here in FL I am willing to bet your room temp is in the low to mid 70's and that will be perfect for overnight. Research supplementing here-VERY important, and mealworms are not a great feeder. Get a screen cage ASAP.

 

[pssh]

Unfortunately, sleeping during the day is a very bad sign. Fortunately, she is still gripping things. I would make a vet appointment ASAP and ake her to a good chameleon experienced vet.

 

[kinyonga]

You mentioned bark in her cage...some barks contain oils that are toxic to chameleons and if ingested can cause impaction...so I recommend not using it.

You said she's under a black light....the type that emits UVB??

You said..."Still think she's gravid/eggbound with bone disease and all? Could you tell me why so I can bring it up to the vet on Friday?"...
Her shape (rounder in the back end) makes me think that she has eggs inside. Did the vet do an x-ray to see?
You said her eyes are shut but she moves when sprayed...this to me indicates that she is too sick to open her eyes.
Also she has a thin look to her arms which could be from poor health but might be from old age.
Her overall look just doesn't look "hale and hearty" to me".

 

[Elizadolots]

Well, Lucie, you've got yourself a chameleon! I have high hopes that you can get over any hurdles and enjoy her.

Please do get a screened cage as soon as you can. If money is a problem, LLL carries "reptarium" cages which are somewhat less expensive. I've seen veiled owners say they get damaged easily by the toenails. However, it might be necessary to do the less expensive option up front.

Regardless of whether she's currently gravid or not, all females of egg bearing species should (to my mind) have an egg laying bin in the cage at all times. If you just put it in when you think she needs it, I think you run the risk of her being freaked by the new thing in the cage...of course, if there isn't a bin and you think she needs one, then by all means, take that risk.

You don't need any light at night.

While I don't want to scare you, they don't necessarily lose their grip when they die. They sort of "atrophe" where they are. However, my experience is they don't usually stay high up in the branches.

I hope you can pull Lucie through. You obviously have a strong bond with her. I'm sure she'll feel that affection.

 

[FFSTRescue]

When you call the vet that supposedly looked at the chameleon, ask him to fax the records to your vet. If there is no paperwork, then the vet didn't look at the chameleon. A vet is not going to charge a person, or a pet store, to look at their animals and not keep records and a file of it. I have been a vet tech for 10 years and have worked at many different clinics, even clinics with veterinarians that deal with pet stores and breeders, so this is how it works, for legal reasons they must keep records. If there is no record of it, report the store for providing false information to you if possible. They don't seem honest to me. Also, if there are records saying the chameleon is healthy and your vet says it is unhealthy, the veterinarian can be reported for lying to help "his friend" make a sale. Pet stores are just so shady and they only care about making the almighty dollar (Not all pet stores, Twin Cities Reptile is wonderful and cares for all their animals and makes sure to educate people, but these are not the majority of pet stores unfortunately). Good luck to you with this, but I don't think the store should get away with all of this at the expense of this poor little innocent creature.

 

[Olimpia]

Yes, I still think she looks weak and dehydrated. Her casque is completely sunken in, that can't be a good sign. Follow the advice of the people that have posted above me and she should do well. Keep giving her lots of water because I think that's the thing she's missing right now.

 

[Elizadolots]

When you call the vet that supposedly looked at the chameleon, ask him to fax the records to your vet.

That's really good advice. If you haven't picked a reptile specialist yet but have a relationship with a "common pet" vet, maybe you could ask their office to accept the fax for you. You do want to find a vet with chameleon experience close to you, but you should get this going sooner rather than later.

Yes, I still think she looks weak and dehydrated. Her casque is completely sunken in, that can't be a good sign. Follow the advice of the people that have posted above me and she should do well. Keep giving her lots of water because I think that's the thing she's missing right now.

I second that. It's amazing what a big difference proper hydration makes. Everything else is important too, but if you get enough water going, it makes the whole thing less urgent.

 

[Lucie]

Another update...

OK I just went on one of your sponsor sites- Pangea- and ordered a massive 2' x 2' x 4' open air reptarium, should be here v. shortly. Lucie made it through the move. I am misting her with warmish water 3-4 x/day, which pisses her off a lot, makes her turn black. Her blue spots just started showing. I've put a sandbox in there for her to dig in, but she still goes to the bottom of the enclosure and digs in the couple inches of bark I have down there. I have a fake bonzai tree I put in the sandbox, which I put her on so she can have an opportunity to explore the sandbox & dig a hole for eggs in it, but no dice. I have the box on the unlit half of the tank, do you think that's the issue? I spoke to the vet on the phone, he was 99% sure that she was not gravid but this weird digging behavior has me thinking otherwise. Sometimes the crickets hide in piles of bark, do you think she might be digging to look for them? I fed her about 10 waxworms the other day, she puked them all up. I have about 8 crickets running around in her tank right now, I don't see her eat very much. She seems more active though than when I first brought her home. She doesn't really sleep during the day anymore. Well that's the last few days in a nutshell lol thoughts?

 

[laurie]

hey you need to get the bark out of her cage, she can ingest a piece of it trying to get her crickets. I know the way you already love her you don't want her to have any more problems.

She may hate the mistings but you are doing something really good for her. Just think of it as not letting your human kid live on candy. You are raising a healthy chameleon and water is way at the top of the important list. Good job.

 

[Elizadolots]

I think most hate the mistings, at least at the beginning. One of mine puts on such a show you'd swear I was misting with acid....but after a few minutes, he starts drinking.

You'll want to moisten that sand occasionally.

When you say "open air reptarium" is that one with the PVC pipe frame and zip on mesh cover? They're great for keeping humidity up.

My suggestion is to spend some time with the PVC frame before zipping the mesh on. You can hang plants right on the frame, you can hang vines right on the frame. The mesh is loose enough to fit over minor things tied to the PVC. PM me if you want some ideas.

I'm so glad she's hanging in there. She's a trouper.

 

[kinyonga]

Is the sand in the container moist enough for her to dig a tunnel/hole in?

May I suggest you dig a hole in the sand and show it to her...she may decide to continue with it.

Sometimes a small dose or two of liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate will "encourage" egglaying.

If she continues to sit at the bottom of her cage and becomes lethargic, etc. then you should get her to a vet ASAP, IMHO.
Good luck with her!

 

[SpinyFranky]

I actually still think you have a very sick/dying chameleon Lucie, and I also think you should find a new vet.

From every picture you have posted the animal is weak,thin,dehydrated, and looking gravid, and in a few of the pictures it looks bowlegged....though I do think that could be from weakness and not necessarily MBD.

Though I do applaud you for caring so much about this innocent creature, and since you already have her I wish you both the best and a speedy recovery. At least she ended up with someone who seems to truly care, those are the best owners these animals can ever hope for.

Digging in the sand is most usually a sign of ready to lay eggs, so I think your vet (or whose vet it was that first inspected the animal ) is full of himself/herself.

The animal is also really really dehydrated, look at the ways the eyes are sunken into the head, the limbs are outrageously skinny for a sub adult/adult animal.

Why are you using a black light? its most likely preventing her from sleeping, which she could probably really use at a time like this.

as stated above bark usually contains toxins and can be the easiest way to get an impaction. I would remove that soon.

Are you sure the play sand is moist enough for her to dig? if you scoop it in a ball and squeeze it should be moist not dry, not should water leak out - a few drips would be ok though. You want it to be wet enough to be moveable, but dry enough to hold.

S.F

 

[Julirs]

What are your temps and are you using a digital thermometer? Some animals will dig in response to trying to escape heat that is too high near the top.