Falling in Love with Roaches
- Thread starter Sammy Grigio
- Start date
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I will try to explain it in a simple way.
My response, which has been attacked and accused from being wrong by cyberlocc sounds exactly like this:
“You can continue loving the roaches and it is actually good for your chameleon. They are generally very rich in uric acid and its salts and overfeeding chameleons with them leads to renal damage and gout.”
the main meaining, which is obvious, is to point out a real risk that OVERFEEDING them (the chameleons) with ROACHES, that are GENERALLY (as a rule, im many cases, in normal cases) RICH in uric acid etc, is RISKY.
That is it...
Then, as usual, cyberlocc chimes in, twists the topic and wides is and because he lacks basal
education in sciences but he is reading a lot, he actually misunderstands or oversimplifies what he wrongly understands but dares to make points that are problematic (and sometimes he is right and makes brilliant points to be fair).
1. Uric acid is a simple substance with bicyclic structure, consisting of C, H, O and N elements. It can not be converted to proteins, as it lacks lots of elements and secondary to pentiary structure components. And it works also vice versa in protein digestion: UA is a byproduct, not something proteins are transformed to.
It is like it is not true that Silicium can be converted to a skyscraper. It needs a lot of other elements like oxygen first to become silica, aggregate and crystalize to become sand and added cement and metal and and and and to become a functional skyscraper (please not to take explicitely but as a metaphor).
2. The nice yet not scientific cited article presents the situation correctly and very clearly and states i.a.:
“Uric acid is a natural byproduct of protein digestion. It’s an antioxidant, and all animals need it small amounts. However, uric acid can be toxic if it builds up to very high levels in the body.”
and
“This confirms that some cockroaches have no uric acid regulating ability, and that they just keep storing up more and more until they die.”
To make the story short,
roaches are as a rule rich in uric acid as they can NOT “not be” and overfeeding with them represents a seriois harm to chameleons, in which exactly the renal system is one of the most troubled one in captivity and a significant reason for a big portion of chameleon deaths.
3. It is NOT true that it can be solved easily as cyberlocc says, it can just be reduced a bit but still the risk remains
“Roaches are only high in uric acid, when they are fed animal proteins or rather excessive proteins. They store the excess animal proteins as uric acid.
Simple solution. Don't feed animal proteins, or too much protein.”
My response, which has been attacked and accused from being wrong by cyberlocc sounds exactly like this:
“You can continue loving the roaches and it is actually good for your chameleon. They are generally very rich in uric acid and its salts and overfeeding chameleons with them leads to renal damage and gout.”
the main meaining, which is obvious, is to point out a real risk that OVERFEEDING them (the chameleons) with ROACHES, that are GENERALLY (as a rule, im many cases, in normal cases) RICH in uric acid etc, is RISKY.
That is it...
Then, as usual, cyberlocc chimes in, twists the topic and wides is and because he lacks basal
education in sciences but he is reading a lot, he actually misunderstands or oversimplifies what he wrongly understands but dares to make points that are problematic (and sometimes he is right and makes brilliant points to be fair).
1. Uric acid is a simple substance with bicyclic structure, consisting of C, H, O and N elements. It can not be converted to proteins, as it lacks lots of elements and secondary to pentiary structure components. And it works also vice versa in protein digestion: UA is a byproduct, not something proteins are transformed to.
It is like it is not true that Silicium can be converted to a skyscraper. It needs a lot of other elements like oxygen first to become silica, aggregate and crystalize to become sand and added cement and metal and and and and to become a functional skyscraper (please not to take explicitely but as a metaphor).
2. The nice yet not scientific cited article presents the situation correctly and very clearly and states i.a.:
“Uric acid is a natural byproduct of protein digestion. It’s an antioxidant, and all animals need it small amounts. However, uric acid can be toxic if it builds up to very high levels in the body.”
and
“This confirms that some cockroaches have no uric acid regulating ability, and that they just keep storing up more and more until they die.”
To make the story short,
roaches are as a rule rich in uric acid as they can NOT “not be” and overfeeding with them represents a seriois harm to chameleons, in which exactly the renal system is one of the most troubled one in captivity and a significant reason for a big portion of chameleon deaths.
3. It is NOT true that it can be solved easily as cyberlocc says, it can just be reduced a bit but still the risk remains
“Roaches are only high in uric acid, when they are fed animal proteins or rather excessive proteins. They store the excess animal proteins as uric acid.
Simple solution. Don't feed animal proteins, or too much protein.”
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
So, his statements are NOT making my statement irrelevant.
Especially when people often get roaches from farms that has economic intersts in speedy production of toaches and you never know what they have been fed with: better safe than sorry: better assume that they will be very RICH in Uric acid and you will be in most cases right.
Moreover, his statement:
“Roaches are by far more nutritional than Crickets.”
is extremely problematic in the context when this should be a recommendation and advocacy FOR roaches against crickets.
why?
Roaches are extremely far from what can be called a natural food of chameleons, as I am not aware of any field study that would reveal them being eaten by chameleons in the wild (obviously, they mostly inhabit completely different microbiotipes and are active at night when chameleons do not eat obviously”
Same would apply to crickets, however a series of very close relatives of them (any other orthopterans like grasshopers, mantis etc.) are building natural diet of chameleons (though also in most of the cases not in big percentage).
The logic “to feed a more nutritional food should be better (sic?)” is a false one IMHO,
As chameleons are generally for
Millions of years used to feed on insects of very low nutritional values and their physiology is adapted to it. Feeding highly nutritional food (roaches), therefore, is IMHO unnatural and therefore very risky, especially considering that they are also by far exceeding as a rule the normal average size of the bite and contain as a rule lots of very hard and spiky components.
Just a simple deduction would be, that feeding such food would logically lead to problems with renal system, gout, and digestion in general: an THIS is exactly the picture we observe in captive chameleons btw!
Even in humans the strategy to make a more nutritional food a standard for the privileged ones (nobles) lead from the medieval to gout that was labelled “the disease of aristocrats”...
This logic is false and I do not recommend to go this way except of situations when you desperately need to apply it such as after disease, transport, gravidity etc...
So, I insist that my warning:
“do not overfeed with roaches” is absolutely valid!
Especially when people often get roaches from farms that has economic intersts in speedy production of toaches and you never know what they have been fed with: better safe than sorry: better assume that they will be very RICH in Uric acid and you will be in most cases right.
Moreover, his statement:
“Roaches are by far more nutritional than Crickets.”
is extremely problematic in the context when this should be a recommendation and advocacy FOR roaches against crickets.
why?
Roaches are extremely far from what can be called a natural food of chameleons, as I am not aware of any field study that would reveal them being eaten by chameleons in the wild (obviously, they mostly inhabit completely different microbiotipes and are active at night when chameleons do not eat obviously”
Same would apply to crickets, however a series of very close relatives of them (any other orthopterans like grasshopers, mantis etc.) are building natural diet of chameleons (though also in most of the cases not in big percentage).
The logic “to feed a more nutritional food should be better (sic?)” is a false one IMHO,
As chameleons are generally for
Millions of years used to feed on insects of very low nutritional values and their physiology is adapted to it. Feeding highly nutritional food (roaches), therefore, is IMHO unnatural and therefore very risky, especially considering that they are also by far exceeding as a rule the normal average size of the bite and contain as a rule lots of very hard and spiky components.
Just a simple deduction would be, that feeding such food would logically lead to problems with renal system, gout, and digestion in general: an THIS is exactly the picture we observe in captive chameleons btw!
Even in humans the strategy to make a more nutritional food a standard for the privileged ones (nobles) lead from the medieval to gout that was labelled “the disease of aristocrats”...
This logic is false and I do not recommend to go this way except of situations when you desperately need to apply it such as after disease, transport, gravidity etc...
So, I insist that my warning:
“do not overfeed with roaches” is absolutely valid!
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
What DO I recommend?
Focus on food that is natural for chameleons:
1. low nutritional value flying insects
2. Small size not exceeding 1/2in for most of the midle sized species and 3/4in for the bigger ones (yes, this show the field studies!) better feed with lots of small food items than witb a big one
3. Enrich the food with pollen
4. If you feed with roaches at all, so:
a. Best breed yourself and feed with low protein vegetarian diet predominantly
b. If you buy them, do not feed with them immediately but allow several weeks “to clean themselves” on low protein diet
c. Feed with small roaches not with big ones (first, big is unnatural and can cause digestion problems and injuries and second, in immature animals the uric acid issue is less a problem because they tend to invest obviously all eaten energy into growth and development and not in building “pseudo reserves” or “trading assets for initiating reproduction”, as itnis simply not their time yet)
d. Make sure roaches are just a small portion of the captive diet, est. not more than 20%
e. Do not overfeed with roaches
5. Do not overfeed your chameleons at all
Focus on food that is natural for chameleons:
1. low nutritional value flying insects
2. Small size not exceeding 1/2in for most of the midle sized species and 3/4in for the bigger ones (yes, this show the field studies!) better feed with lots of small food items than witb a big one
3. Enrich the food with pollen
4. If you feed with roaches at all, so:
a. Best breed yourself and feed with low protein vegetarian diet predominantly
b. If you buy them, do not feed with them immediately but allow several weeks “to clean themselves” on low protein diet
c. Feed with small roaches not with big ones (first, big is unnatural and can cause digestion problems and injuries and second, in immature animals the uric acid issue is less a problem because they tend to invest obviously all eaten energy into growth and development and not in building “pseudo reserves” or “trading assets for initiating reproduction”, as itnis simply not their time yet)
d. Make sure roaches are just a small portion of the captive diet, est. not more than 20%
e. Do not overfeed with roaches
5. Do not overfeed your chameleons at all
Kaizen
Chameleon Enthusiast
I like roaches too.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Dumb question since we got Pete on the hook. What are these non wild caught easily farmed flying insects? He has to have a herd of them for many years and has it down to a science on how to grow them. Else its a pity to recommend only an insect type that can only be wild caught in traps. That would be anyone living outside of "warm all year round" could not harvest during the fall/winter.
And back on subject, the family was pretty bummed when i said the last 3 giant green banana nymphs turned out to be all girls, so no more bananas after they are gone.
And back on subject, the family was pretty bummed when i said the last 3 giant green banana nymphs turned out to be all girls, so no more bananas after they are gone.
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
First off, no one attacked you, I cleared up a simple misconception. Politely, and with a Link, that stems into even more articles in the sources.
Secondly, Chameleons are not the only reptile to get gout.
Your making bold statements. Of which I am going to need a link for. I also do not lack a basic education in science, you know nothing about me, stop making assumptions of people you know nothing about. The everyone in the room but Petr is stupid act, is getting very old for a lot of folks.
That article, was based in science the majority of it was snipped from research papers, please see the sources at page bottom. I myself have read those as well, however you have to gauge the audience. Not many reading this, will read that dry text. That article is easier for them.
At the end of the day, the data speaks for itself, people can take what they will from it. Thats all that matters to me, I am not here to impress or change your mind in the slightest I do not care, the data and your conjecture, can allow folks to make up their own minds, of what they feel comfortable with, or what they take from it. Thats good enough for me.
Its all out of context for this thread anyway, if you want to discuss this, in more depth including roaches nutritional content, why your wild diet doesn't apply in captivity, and more, make a thread that pertains too it, or ask me in DMs and I will
.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
@PetNcs what about larger species that have got to be eating large amounts of small lizards, amphibians, and birds in the wild? I have been feeding pretty large roaches(within reason for his size) as my cham tends to prefer them. Have been feeding about 80% of the diet in roaches with all of my chameleons without an issue yet.
Also, thoughts on this? http://www.roachforum.com/topic/684...ion-from-a-50-year-biohemistroach-researcher/
Also, thoughts on this? http://www.roachforum.com/topic/684...ion-from-a-50-year-biohemistroach-researcher/
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
The Roach Lord vs the Chameleon Godfather, as it was Foretold by Salzman! (from accounting)
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Again a piss contest from your sideFirst off, no one attacked you, I cleared up a simple misconception. Politely, and with a Link, that stems into even more articles in the sources.
Secondly, Chameleons are not the only reptile to get gout.
Your making bold statements. Of which I am going to need a link for. I also do not lack a basic education in science, you know nothing about me, stop making assumptions of people you know nothing about. The everyone in the room but Petr is stupid act, is getting very old for a lot of folks.
That article, was based in science the majority of it was snipped from research papers, please see the sources at page bottom. I myself have read those as well, however you have to gauge the audience. Not many reading this, will read that dry text. That article is easier for them.
At the end of the day, the data speaks for itself, people can take what they will from it. Thats all that matters to me, I am not here to impress or change your mind in the slightest I do not care, the data and your conjecture, can allow folks to make up their own minds, of what they feel comfortable with, or what they take from it. Thats good enough for me.
Its all out of context for this thread anyway, if you want to discuss this, in more depth including roaches nutritional content, why your wild diet doesn't apply in captivity, and more, make a thread that pertains too it, or ask me in DMs and I will
In took effort to explain the subject and yij can only attack me again fir nothing
I have no interest in ANY debate with you as it does not make sense
you will not get any single answer from me any more
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
I present the experience and research from the wild.
I just say they do not do itnin the wild to eat so much of so big food. So, to gove them is NOT natural.
Your “without any issue yet” is based on what? Evidence of absence...? What analyses have you done to state that? Not attacking, just curious what concretely are you talking about?
CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you for factual answers. That is what we need.
I have read that it is good for the dubias to go a day without food once a week. I wounder if there is coralition here.
I do it, but I figgured it was more to build apatite.
I do apreciate your factual info. I feed mine only veggies with roach chow once a week, and the day of no food after that. They are my primary food source, so I will be doing further research on this.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Some things you are missing.
1. Captivity is not the wild. We can not provide all or even most, of the insects they consume in the wild. At least in the states, where importing of exotic insects is challenging and illegal, for most.
2. Chameleons are no more susceptible to gout than other Reptiles. There has been plenty of study's, that are mentioned and linked in the article I provided, if the roaches are fed a proper diet, there is no build up of Uric Acid, and there is no risk of Gout.
The link James provided says the same thing.
3. What you have scene in the wild, is a great help, and you have contributed alot to this hobby, and it's appreciated. However that does not give you the powers of all knowing. As shown here.
We have wild diets for some species (sadly not Parsons that James is referring, or Panthers, that I have seen).
All of them, are found to have roach species in their bodys. In small amounts sure, 2-5% of the diet is about average in the study's.
However the Bees you praise, only usually make up about 10%, so 5% for roaches is not that bad.
None of his info here is factual, he is providing wrong I might add speculation, look at the 2 links above. The one I provided and the one of James.
If fed an appropriate diet, there is NO issue with Uric Acid.
I WILL however agree with Petr on the fact of trusting the roach breeders.
I would breed your own colony, and I would "Starve" the roaches for a bit, when you first get them to course correct back into a proper diet. From then on, with proper gutload, you will be fine.
You know how it's easy to know Petr is speaking speculation, ask him for one link that supports his claim.
He can't provide one, because it does not exist.
We are low with study's, for alot of things sadly.
However in this case, Gout does not only affect Chameleons, it affects all reptiles. Roaches are a very popular feeder, for all reptiles. So in this instance, we actually have a metric ton of study's, and people who study roaches like in James post. That completely everything Petr is saying.
He just said "the problem happens no matter the diet" "its not solved easily as Cyber claims"
Literally read the (BTW It is scientifically sourced) from papers article, that will show you, that is utterly not true.
His contributions to field observations are great, and we should appreciate them. That does not give him the all knowing powers he seems to think he has. The man didn't even know that Mediterranean crickets are 2-3x the size of US available crickets, while telling US keepers to feed their chams no more than 1 cricket per day. Then, when I politely pointed it out to him, to help his care sheets for US keepers, he threw it in my face..... "Ohh super smart Cyber can weigh a cricket"....
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CasqueAbove
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes facts are what I seek. That is why I want to research more. I think a varied diet would be great, but like you say, where do we get them.
I do have my own colony, going on a year. Primarily veggies, and a day of no food per week. I add other foods as well.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Right facts are in the article, Petr is speaking speculation, that is baseless. Its a common myth, it gets stated alot. There has been lots of research because of that, and them becoming a major feeder in the REPTILE market, not just chams, all reptiles. For that reason there is lots of studys and data, Chams are not more prone to renal issues and gout than say a bearded dragon.
Again, I would not trust a commercial breeder, is not feeding improper food sources. And would cleanse a new colony, and then start with a low protein diet. You will likely be feeding babies mostly anyway, so they will not be tainted if you buy adults only to start your colony.
Never did I mean, do not feed a varied diet, as you should be doing that 100%. However as Staples go, if your cham will take them Roaches > Crickets, IMO and the majority of the Reptile industry. They are proven to be a superior insect from a nutritional standpoint, they do not carry the serious risk of alfatoxin poisoning (whether you believe in that or not), they are cleaner, make no noise, do not smell as bad. They are vastly superior to Crickets.
However you still need to vary diet, so crickets may be needed from that point of view.
I have to say, you walking around in the wild with an Exoterra Terrarium Thermometer (Like Really?? You do realize that isnt close to accurate right? Thats just for the videos I hope...) does not apply to this discussion....
There is good science that has to be done in the field, this particular conversation is based off data in a Lab. Outside of your area, is it not? Yet, you still refute the evidence presented that you are wrong, that was published by folks whose area it is?
What does your research from the wild provide in this topic? That they dont eat wild roaches? That is not true, see every intestinal track study of chameleons ever done. Every one has found roaches in the Chameleons diets. Small amounts, usually 2-5% or less, but even then Bees only make up ~10%.
Also you keep threatening to not reply to me, IDC, im not here to fight with you. If you provide incorrect, or debated claims, I will provide their contrast. As I do with everyone, there is no pissing match here, its what I do. If you want to reply your side civilly, I will gladly read it and take it into account, if you dont thats fine.
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Brodybreaux25
Chameleon Enthusiast
You two just need to get married and get it over with....
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
Shameless and rude
PetNcs
Chameleon Enthusiast
We can offer to chameleons a diet which is much closer to the natural one than we do nowadays
The shameless recommendation of absolutely unnatural roaches is wrong
Chameleons do not eat roaches for millions of years, we do not need to feed with them, it is not necessary and argumantation that captivity is different than Nature is weak,
Is is so only if we decide to do so and not if we try the proper way
I have done hundreds of wild fecal analyses of chamelekns of many kinds
No single one contained roaches
Every single one contained flying insects
Just a week ago in Tamzania, I analyzed faeces of 8 chameleon species
tjis was the rough result
trying to outsmart what Mother Natire is doing millions of years is ignorant and wrong in my humblest opinion
The shameless recommendation of absolutely unnatural roaches is wrong
Chameleons do not eat roaches for millions of years, we do not need to feed with them, it is not necessary and argumantation that captivity is different than Nature is weak,
Is is so only if we decide to do so and not if we try the proper way
I have done hundreds of wild fecal analyses of chamelekns of many kinds
No single one contained roaches
Every single one contained flying insects
Just a week ago in Tamzania, I analyzed faeces of 8 chameleon species
tjis was the rough result
trying to outsmart what Mother Natire is doing millions of years is ignorant and wrong in my humblest opinion
