F. Pardalis overrated?

I remember only a few years ago when your average panther cost $200-350, if anything the price keeps dropping. Its a shame to. These are not just some average lizard, they are special. I wish the prices would stay HIGH, it would help steer the kooks away from buying these amazing creatures. So if you are complaning about the cost, just sit and think about what you are getting. We should fell lucky to live in a time that allows us to keep such animals. Just mt 2cents.
 
I didn't mean anything deragatory I said "no offense to anyone" I don't buy to breed I buy to keep. So yah to me the average consumer that makes 9.50 an hour a 300 dollar baby seems ridiculous when I could go to my guy and get one for under 100. The price does seem crazy when compared the fact you can get a veiled for 30 bucks. They price to produce one or the other is similar no?

Ohh and I meant a 300 dollar baby was silly not an adult. I can understand paying more for an established adult animal with his full coloration. But to me a 2 month old for more than 200 is insane. Sorry thats just my opinion on the subject. To each his own I spend my money with people I think are worthy of getting it.
 
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For me keeping panthers and "them being my favorite" is because of the colors. Everyone has there own preference in what they like. I love how there all in different shades and things. I would have more if I could.
 
Jeanjacket, if you ask me, veileds are very under priced. It takes alot of time and money to breed then raise chams. To do it right takes even more. A big reason why panthers cost much more is the locales. One locale is worth more then another. If you ever breed chameleons you will understand why things are the way they are. Its just not worth anyones time to sell them any cheaper.
 
Ya that is the thing that gets me though. I've read up a lot on breeding and it seems veileds and panthers are very easy to breed or at least get eggs out of. However the price difference is what blows my mind. I mean there are a ton of ambilobes available. It is supply and demand for sure I love the ambilobes but I think that a 100 dollar price is ideal in my eyes. I know that the rarer locales will always catch a higher price. With a similar clutch size I just don't see how there can be like a 200 dollar difference between a 2 month old veiled baby and a 2 month old panther baby. Not meaning to ruffle anyones feathers this is the way I see it. The guy I got my babies from told me he was so cheap because the market didn't call for 200 dollar babies anymore. I'm with him!
 
VeiledOwner87 said:
look at mellers. they are a ton bigger than panthers and are less expensive. .
Click to expand...

Mellers are less expensive, when they are WC. When offered as CH and hopefully soon CB, will be close to what some people charge for Panthers because of how hard they are too breed them. Some people have cared for their Mellers for years, and different times they have bred. Some people are more fortunate than others, meaning they buy them, and breed right when they get them, or have them for a year, then finally breed.

Also to the main question- there are a few points I would like to make with cost of babies

One- do you have any idea how much it cost to raise a clutch of really any kind of chameleon? Some chameleons don't have as many eggs as some, but for example we will use panthers(since you are asking about them). They lay maybe around 20-25 someimes up to 30 eggs. So, after you spend a month for caring for the mother to make she has no complications having eggs, she lays them. Then you wait up to nine or more months for them to hatch. So now that your eggs have hatched you have a few things to look at for this. Where to keep them, where to buy food, and how long you are going to keep them. Unless you are a big breeder, you keep them in your home, which means a portion of your house is gone for AT LEAST two months. The next thing you look at is food. You have to buy thousands of bugs for these little guys to eat for at least two months(as mentioned before) and it adds up, fast. Next, is how long you are going to keep them, at least two months. Before two months of age, shipping would be a death wish, it is super stressful for them. So, two months is the youngest you will hopefully see a lizard be sold over the internet.

Second point- Supply and demand. One reason why Panthers are so expensive compared to let's say Veileds, is that people will buy them for that much. Also, like I mentioned before, they don't lay as many eggs as Veileds, so if you even want to break even, they have to be higher priced so you can at least break even. Most hobby breeders, want to breed just for the experience, although must of us want to at least break even, but most of the time probably don't because of the cost, but we love the hobby, so we love to do it (right guys?).

Third point- Bloodlines are very important. Popular bloodlines from let's say Flchams, Kammers, Chameleons Northwest, and most of the site sponsors. Think of it like dog breeding, AKC champion bloodlines are very expensive because the dogs come from winning champions. So when you have lizards from known bloodlines of the chameleon world, people want them to have better bloodlines to breed, or have very nice looking lizards to show off. So like I said, people that have babies from popular bloodlines tend to be more expensive than others.


Lastly- Just because you have babies doesn't mean you can sell them after they are ready to sell. This doesn't have anything to do with the high prices, but just something to think about If you are wanting to breed. Some people have had babies, and basically drop prices to rediculous levels to sell them because instead of selling when they are two months old, you end up raising them to 6 months before you sell them. So now you are out more money because you have to feed them, bigger cages, and also your time. So, if you are thinking about breeding, think about after you have eggs hatched, with hungry babies in your hands, always plan ahead.

LPR08
 
LinkinParkRulez08 said:
Mellers are less expensive, when they are WC. When offered as CH and hopefully soon CB, will be close to what some people charge for Panthers because of how hard they are too breed them. Some people have cared for their Mellers for years, and different times they have bred. Some people are more fortunate than others, meaning they buy them, and breed right when they get them, or have them for a year, then finally breed.

Also to the main question- there are a few points I would like to make with cost of babies

One- do you have any idea how much it cost to raise a clutch of really any kind of chameleon? Some chameleons don't have as many eggs as some, but for example we will use panthers(since you are asking about them). They lay maybe around 20-25 someimes up to 30 eggs. So, after you spend a month for caring for the mother to make she has no complications having eggs, she lays them. Then you wait up to nine or more months for them to hatch. So now that your eggs have hatched you have a few things to look at for this. Where to keep them, where to buy food, and how long you are going to keep them. Unless you are a big breeder, you keep them in your home, which means a portion of your house is gone for AT LEAST two months. The next thing you look at is food. You have to buy thousands of bugs for these little guys to eat for at least two months(as mentioned before) and it adds up, fast. Next, is how long you are going to keep them, at least two months. Before two months of age, shipping would be a death wish, it is super stressful for them. So, two months is the youngest you will hopefully see a lizard be sold over the internet.

Second point- Supply and demand. One reason why Panthers are so expensive compared to let's say Veileds, is that people will buy them for that much. Also, like I mentioned before, they don't lay as many eggs as Veileds, so if you even want to break even, they have to be higher priced so you can at least break even. Most hobby breeders, want to breed just for the experience, although must of us want to at least break even, but most of the time probably don't because of the cost, but we love the hobby, so we love to do it (right guys?).

Third point- Bloodlines are very important. Popular bloodlines from let's say Flchams, Kammers, Chameleons Northwest, and most of the site sponsors. Think of it like dog breeding, AKC champion bloodlines are very expensive because the dogs come from winning champions. So when you have lizards from known bloodlines of the chameleon world, people want them to have better bloodlines to breed, or have very nice looking lizards to show off. So like I said, people that have babies from popular bloodlines tend to be more expensive than others.


Lastly- Just because you have babies doesn't mean you can sell them after they are ready to sell. This doesn't have anything to do with the high prices, but just something to think about If you are wanting to breed. Some people have had babies, and basically drop prices to rediculous levels to sell them because instead of selling when they are two months old, you end up raising them to 6 months before you sell them. So now you are out more money because you have to feed them, bigger cages, and also your time. So, if you are thinking about breeding, think about after you have eggs hatched, with hungry babies in your hands, always plan ahead.

LPR08
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you know, i will buy that. thank you for the most respected opinion in this thread. i agree with the bloodlines, yes i do. something i didnt realy tend to think about until today. but i must ask one thing, to perhaps beg to differ. you said panthers lay up to 30 eggs. with other species capable of laying quite more, wouldnt it cost more to keep them up? thus being more expensive?
 
There are multiple reasons why the panthers are priced the way they are.

First when you have a mass amount of people wanting certain colors not breeds they are willing to pay more. I think is basic economics, here there are the normal breeders who sell panthers for 200-350 and then there are other breeders usually they are the more recent ones and they under cut the competition by selling their chams for 175. I mean hey its money for them and they sell all their stock, if there are enough newer breeders doing that the older breeder HAS to lower their price or they don't sell anything. That is the first reason and i really don't think any one should be complaining about the price of panthers because as so many of you previously stated the price is dropping.

Second part is the color, it can take multiple generations to get the color that one is going for, or you can look for a very long time and pay a pretty penny to get them. I personally crosses should be going for the same as pure bred because many people get a cham based on its colors. So the crosses usually have more colors.

At the way you are going why aren't you complaining that parsons are $2800. I mean they were $40-$50 15 years ago. Markets fluctuate and people should deal with it, if you have a problem just don't deal with the market. You don't HAVE to own a chameleon, so if its too expensive for you don't get it, but don't complain. I think too many people now think they deserve thing such as exotic pets or nice cars or mansions, those things would be nice but they are not the essentials and not every one gets them.

There is a reason why for example Nosy Faly's, you don't see too many sold right? and when you do they are no lower than $400. That's because all the breeders aren't giving up their Faly's they are creating breeding projects because they are relatively new to the market. Give it a year and you will the the flood of Faly's in the market and then the price will drop down to $200-$300 in like 2 or 3 years.
 
Googlez I agree with you and I'm not complaining like I said I found the cheapest cham company in the game and I was shocked when I learned the prices and very happy with the quality, shipping, and customer service and thats what business is all about right? Everyone walks away with a smile! If a person is getting that big money for the panthers more power to them, like I said to the average pet owner I just don't see the value in it for me. For the breeder who's reputation is based on the quality of the animal I could deffinitly see paying to get the best bloodline.
 
jeanjacket812 said:
Googlez I agree with you and I'm not complaining like I said I found the cheapest cham company in the game and I was shocked when I learned the prices and very happy with the quality, shipping, and customer service and thats what business is all about right? Everyone walks away with a smile! If a person is getting that big money for the panthers more power to them, like I said to the average pet owner I just don't see the value in it for me. For the breeder who's reputation is based on the quality of the animal I could deffinitly see paying to get the best bloodline.
Click to expand...

YES! and that is a VERY good point. There are two different classifications here, just normal pet owners, and then breeders. Hence the different views.
 
VeiledOwner87 said:
you know, i will buy that. thank you for the most respected opinion in this thread. i agree with the bloodlines, yes i do. something i didnt realy tend to think about until today. but i must ask one thing, to perhaps beg to differ. you said panthers lay up to 30 eggs. with other species capable of laying quite more, wouldnt it cost more to keep them up? thus being more expensive?
Click to expand...

You might think that, but you have more to sell, making it less expensive per lizard. Let's say you have 25 veileds, costing 1000 to raise them to sellable age, to break even, you sell them at 40 just to break even. But with bloodlines added in, you raise the price, making it more expensive because of that. Also, it takes a huge chunk of time to care for them, so you have to decide, how much your time cost. Also, some people use one or two feeders to feed the animals while growing up to lower the price, but some use more than one or two, making cost of food go up. But like I said in my original post, breeding should not be rushed, and you really need to plan ahead so you can care for the little ones as best as you can.

LPR08
 
LinkinParkRulez08 said:
You might think that, but you have more to sell, making it less expensive per lizard. Let's say you have 25 veileds, costing 1000 to raise them to sellable age, to break even, you sell them at 40 just to break even. But with bloodlines added in, you raise the price, making it more expensive because of that. Also, it takes a huge chunk of time to care for them, so you have to decide, how much your time cost. Also, some people use one or two feeders to feed the animals while growing up to lower the price, but some use more than one or two, making cost of food go up. But like I said in my original post, breeding should not be rushed, and you really need to plan ahead so you can care for the little ones as best as you can.

LPR08
Click to expand...

for sure LP, great posts by you and googles, and i do respect true breeders. i guess what realy gets me is the point past when their in the hands of the petshops. yes i agree, you can find some realy well raised and beautiful pures and crosses online, for SOMEWHAT of a decent price. it just boggles my mind and leads me to insainity when im seeing regular ambanjas and ambilobes sold and on the lists starting at $400. so i agree. the breeder, especially if he runs his own distribution service (websites, ect) has all power to the dollar he charges. but in some places where you cannot get chameleons straight from the dealer or breeder, but rather than a exotics store, it becomes highway robbery. again, i live in canada, a bridge's length across from detroit. selections are limited. it truely does suck. and most sponsor sites will not ship live across borders or overseas. so realy the CHEAPEST ive ever seen a panther go for here is 199$ and that was a special on a pink ambiliobe. average costs in shops start at $400. theres honesty, and theyres robbery.
 
VeiledOwner87 said:
for sure LP, great posts by you and googles, and i do respect true breeders. i guess what realy gets me is the point past when their in the hands of the petshops. yes i agree, you can find some realy well raised and beautiful pures and crosses online, for SOMEWHAT of a decent price. it just boggles my mind and leads me to insainity when im seeing regular ambanjas and ambilobes sold and on the lists starting at $400. so i agree. the breeder, especially if he runs his own distribution service (websites, ect) has all power to the dollar he charges. but in some places where you cannot get chameleons straight from the dealer or breeder, but rather than a exotics store, it becomes highway robbery. again, i live in canada, a bridge's length across from detroit. selections are limited. it truely does suck. and most sponsor sites will not ship live across borders or overseas. so realy the CHEAPEST ive ever seen a panther go for here is 199$ and that was a special on a pink ambiliobe. average costs in shops start at $400. theres honesty, and theyres robbery.
Click to expand...

Oh well that clears a lot up, I thought you were against the prices that the breeders have, but I totally understand when there is a BIG chain pet store or exotic pet store and they jack up the price for profit.
 
VeiledOwner87 said:
for sure LP, great posts by you and googles, and i do respect true breeders. i guess what realy gets me is the point past when their in the hands of the petshops. yes i agree, you can find some realy well raised and beautiful pures and crosses online, for SOMEWHAT of a decent price. it just boggles my mind and leads me to insainity when im seeing regular ambanjas and ambilobes sold and on the lists starting at $400. so i agree. the breeder, especially if he runs his own distribution service (websites, ect) has all power to the dollar he charges. but in some places where you cannot get chameleons straight from the dealer or breeder, but rather than a exotics store, it becomes highway robbery. again, i live in canada, a bridge's length across from detroit. selections are limited. it truely does suck. and most sponsor sites will not ship live across borders or overseas. so realy the CHEAPEST ive ever seen a panther go for here is 199$ and that was a special on a pink ambiliobe. average costs in shops start at $400. theres honesty, and theyres robbery.
Click to expand...

Well if they are from America CITES papers cost a decent amount of money. But pet stores are a problem because they have to make money and because they like to make more money than they should. Just my cent about that.

LPR08
 
You have to take into consideration the costs of running a business. Rent, licenses, utilities, plus whatever all the animals need to thrive. Prices are higher at pet stores because they have a lot of overhead. They are trying to make a living doing what they love (hopefully), and you do not have to buy from them if you do not want to. I don't see them as a problem, but another option to people. We all have a choice on where to purchase animals and how much we want to pay.

-Amanda
 
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