Extreme temperature tolerance (quarantine related)

[chameleonneeds]

Hey all.

As some of you may know I am still doing my research on importing reptiles and chameleons specificly.
I know basicly all the requirments now to quarantine the chameleons, though it sounds quite harsh.

The temperature needs to be 26 degrees celsius for a 30 day period called the "heat treatment". I dont know the consequenses if the temperature drops below 26. The thermometer has to be tamper proof aswell.

So anyway I was wondering if WC chameleons will actualy be able to survive through the heat treatment. The species I am specificly talking about are many of the trioceros species, specificly T. Quadricornis, T. Montium, T. Cristatus, T. j.merumontanus and jacksonii, T. Wernerii, T. Deremensis thats about all the trioceros, kinyongias include: K. Multituberculata, K. Tavetanum, K. oxyrhina, K. fischeri (matschei?), and I would also like to know specificly if panther chameleons (furcifer pardalis) WC will survive 30 days of 26 degrees celsius, though I am not importing all of these at the same time, I will only import 10-20 of about 4 species at a time split between 2 people.

I hope the big experts might be able to help me out, Chris Anderson

Please help me if you can

 

[eisentrauti]

All those species won't survive 30 days at constant 26°C. Species like oxyrhina, merumontanus or werneri maybe die in the first week...

 

[Olimpia]

That temp (78.8* F) will be ok for some but not others.

But I've never heard about this before? What is the purpose of keeping them at a constant temp of 26* C for a month?

 

[Chris Anderson]

A lot will depend on the health of the animals when they get them and how much water they are given but also how much attention to it not being too wet at the same time is made. I think it is going to be hard on a lot of them if they are not given temperature drops at night or access to a temperature gradient. F. pardalis should have no problem with those temps and I imagine K. tavetana and maybe K. multituberculata could take it. Most of those species have no problem at 26C when they have a gradient and night temperature drops.

Chris

 

[warpdrive]

I'm not sure what you read but "heat treatments" will kill more of what you are thinking of importing and do little to no good on the ones who survive.

The best way to care for freshly WC imports is to match their needs as if they are still in the wild.
The closer you can meet the needs of the animal, the less stress it will have and any parasites they may have will not get way out of control.

Harry

 

[chameleonneeds]

Thanks for your replies.

@ Warpdrive: I would love to only meet their natural requirments, sadly the laws of south africa will not let me.

I have to get vetrinary import permits for them, and then they get placed in quarantine. There is actualy no public reptile quaranty facilities, though you can setup your own but if I have to build one it will cost me about $7000
(yes. . . yes I do accept donations )

Its not me who calls it heat treatment, its what the nature conservation calls it. Its not up to me

Here is a link for any one who is interested to see what the requirements are for the quarantine.

http://www.nda.agric.za/vetweb/VPN%20&%20SOP/22%20VPN-2002-22%20Registration%20of%20private%20import%20quarintine%20station%20for%20reptiles.pdf

I hope I did that right. You need to have a PDF opener, I use Adobe reader.

I hate quarantine!

 

[chameleonneeds]

A lot will depend on the health of the animals when they get them and how much water they are given but also how much attention to it not being too wet at the same time is made. I think it is going to be hard on a lot of them if they are not given temperature drops at night or access to a temperature gradient. F. pardalis should have no problem with those temps and I imagine K. tavetana and maybe K. multituberculata could take it. Most of those species have no problem at 26C when they have a gradient and night temperature drops.

Chris

Thanks Chris, I knew you would know the specifics

I have to be guranteed that the animals come in as healthy as a healthy WC can be! As there is no room for errors when the process of quarantine + the cost of the animals + the transportation of the animals will be about $10 000

This is quite alot for a 15 year old to be thinking about lol.

 

[chameleonneeds]

All those species won't survive 30 days at constant 26°C. Species like oxyrhina, merumontanus or werneri maybe die in the first week...

I also thought they would probably be the first to die. But what makes it worse is the stress the quarantine can put them in can also bring them to an earlier death

 

[warpdrive]

Since I can't read past page 1, could you please "copy and paste" the LAW requiring you to HARM an animal in order to keep it in captivity during quarantine.

If in fact the law clearly states that you can not keep cool weather animals cool, then maybe you should not import them.

Harry

 

[Olimpia]

Since I can't read past page 1, could you please "copy and paste" the LAW requiring you to HARM an animal in order to keep it in captivity during quarantine.

If in fact the law clearly states that you can not keep cool weather animals cool, then maybe you should not import them.

Harry

Here you go: I haven't read past that yet so I don't know if there is more.

These facilities will not be expected to implement any changes which this policy may
require them to make unless they wish to continue importing reptiles. In order for
reptiles currently under lifelong quarantine to be released, it will be necessary for the
facility owner to prove that the reptiles have been kept above 26oC for at least 30 days.
This must be done under the supervision and control of the State Veterinarian who is
responsible for the facility.

The State Veterinarian and facility owner must agree on one of the following methods
to prove that the reptiles were kept at over 26oC for at least 30 days:

- the placement under veterinary supervision of a minimum thermometer to measure
the ambient temperature in an enclosed room. The thermometer must be put in a
secure wire cage, which must be officially sealed to prevent unauthorised
tampering. This thermometer should be read 30 days later under veterinary
supervision and obviously not show a temperature of less than 26oC.

- the placement of a tamperproof thermograph in an enclosed room, the tracing of
which can be read by the State Veterinarian after 30 days. This is the best option,
but unfortunately an expensive one, for old established quarantine centres which
may no longer import reptiles.

Once the State Veterinarian is satisfied that all reptiles have been subjected to the 30
day heat treatment, without the possibility of reptiles post treatment having been
contaminated by pre-treatment reptiles or fomites then he/she must cancel the
quarantine in writing, accurately describing all the reptiles released from quarantine. A
copy of this cancellation notice must be kept on record at the office of the State
Veterinarian and a copy must be sent to the National Department of Agriculture,
Directorate Animal Health so that the facility can be removed from the list of approved
Reptile Quarantine Stations.

I still don't understand what the purpose of this is. Because if it is nice and toasty parasites and diseases will die? That's not what I learned in microbiology!

 

[chameleonneeds]

Since I can't read past page 1, could you please "copy and paste" the LAW requiring you to HARM an animal in order to keep it in captivity during quarantine.

If in fact the law clearly states that you can not keep cool weather animals cool, then maybe you should not import them.

Harry

I like the way you said that first bit as that is basicly what it is. I know I probably should not import them then. But I will try find other ways.

Thanks Olimpia for quoting all that

 

[Olimpia]

No problem!

It does seem weird, because they don't explain why it is necesary. Not all reptile species are from warm climates, so it seems strange to make this the only way to quaranteen them.

 

[eisentrauti]

Well, after reading this I must say that I've found out now that your authorities are even dumber than mine... I've never read such bullshit before...It's ridiculous.

 

[chameleonneeds]

I know, it is very weird. I think secluding them from all contact from other animals for 30 days, deworming them and hydrating them is more than enough as far as qurantine goes.

But sadly I think the law will never change. . . so smuggling is the only way

 

[chameleonneeds]

Well, after reading this I must say that I've found out now that your authorities are even dumber than mine... I've never read such bullshit before...It's ridiculous.

Now you know exactly how I feel Ben, dont ever move to S.A whatever you do! Dont worry when I leave here I will bring enough bradypodion that you will never have to search for them again

 

[warpdrive]

I'm not a lawyer in south africa, but that first sentence can be fought in court if needed...at least here in the states.
It is so twisted in that it even states that you are not expected to change anything in the policy unless you/they wish to continue importing reptiles.

Again I'm no lawyer in south africa, but I'm sure that there has to be some kind of animal rights or laws requiring owners to properly care for them.
Just so you know, here in the states animals have more rights then human children...no joke.
If such laws do exist, then such laws MIGHT over rule such harmful and cruel laws for importing reptiles.

Harry

 

[chameleonneeds]

Your actualy right Harry. And Im thinking maybe I should try and get something done about it. I will email the agriculture department tomorrow and let everyone know the outcome. But get this, I posted something on SA REPTILES - a south africans exotic and indegenous reptile keeping forum, I said that is doing more harm than good. And some guy replied saying NO reptile is harmed by only a constant 26 degrees for 30 days, he also said NO reptile ruquires a temperature drop of 5 to 10 degrees at any time. He acts like he knows everything but he has probably only ever kept snakes and thinks the same principles apply. I will post the link of the thread tomorrow if anyone wants to see what he and I wrote?

 

[Olimpia]

Yea, sounds like that person has no idea. Most reptiles, that I can think of in captivity (save the snakes I know) benefit from it getting a little colder at night. But imagine a bearded dragon kept at 26 C degrees for a month! The poor think wouldn't be digesting its food properly, since it's an animal that needs an ambient temp of 80 F and a hot spot of 110!

It cannot be applied to every single species, and it is irresponsible to pretend like they're all the same. I would email the department along with attached information on several common pet species, like bearded dragons, for example.

Let us know what happens!

 

[warpdrive]

Your actualy right Harry. And Im thinking maybe I should try and get something done about it. I will email the agriculture department tomorrow and let everyone know the outcome. But get this, I posted something on SA REPTILES - a south africans exotic and indegenous reptile keeping forum, I said that is doing more harm than good. And some guy replied saying NO reptile is harmed by only a constant 26 degrees for 30 days, he also said NO reptile ruquires a temperature drop of 5 to 10 degrees at any time. He acts like he knows everything but he has probably only ever kept snakes and thinks the same principles apply. I will post the link of the thread tomorrow if anyone wants to see what he and I wrote?

Once again, I'm not saying that I'm correct.
After all, SA has their own laws for their own reasons...as out dated and cruel as they may be.

Your best bet is to at least speak with a few importers and see what they say.
If there is no way around the law, then speak with animal rights activists to see what can be done to change the law.

As for the person who thinks they know everything...
Let everyone know who he is back at home so everyone can avoid buying an animal from him.

Harry

 

[chameleonneeds]

Thanks, I will try my best.

I just had another guy on the other forum tell me this: "It is not necessary to drop night time temps for lizards, and yes I have had years worth of experience when it comes to breeding and keeping lizards."

Though the other day he told me in 1995 he kept a smuggled group of furcifer labordi, he successfuly bred them and all BUT they only had a lifespan of about a year.. . .thats what he says.

I do know 2 guys who imported panther chameleons last year I think. And they told me all in all not to import, its too costly and the animals die, I was told that 60% of them die during quarantine and then still stressed after quarantine 20% of them died. The one guy did import gravid females though so when a female nosy mitsio died he removed the eggs and they incubated and hatched sucessfuly.