Extreme Dehydration!

[absolutbill]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Ambanja 4 years old, owned since he was 4 months old.

Handling - Used to never due to his bad attitude, however he's been so lethargic the last two days that he doesn't mind being handled.

Feeding - Crickets and superworms - he's fed every other day and has superworms 1 day a week, the remaining feedings are with crickets. He has tried various worms and rejected them. Both feeders are gutloaded with carrots, potatoes, and collard green stems. I just starting adding bug burger on Wednesday.

Supplements - In the beginning of January I switched to Repashy all in 1 Calcium Plus for all cricket feedings. Prior to that he received calcium w/out D3 for all but 1 feeding per week. Calcium with D3 2 times a month, Herptivite 1 time a month and Reptivite 1 time a month.

Watering - I have an automatic mister, mists 3 times a day, 10 minutes a time. First is at 9AM, 2nd is at 1PM, 3rd is at 3PM. Rarely see him drink.

Fecal Description - He has never been tested for parasites, fecals tend toward orange tint, despite all the mistings.

History - The only thing he's ever had wrong was a Vitamin A deficiency about 3 years ago. After learning from the members here I self-treated him and he was fine.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - 24x24x48 screen.

Lighting - ReptiGlo 5.0 24". I change the bulb every 6 months, most recent was yesterday. Also there's a basking bulb. Lights are on a timer - on at 8AM, off at 7PM for the winter months, extended to a 12 hour schedule in the summer.

Temperature - His basking spot was at 80, I just changed the bulb to increase it to 85. The lowest is 75. I use a temp gun.

Humidity - Humidity ranges from 75-80% during misting to 50% when completely dry. I have a portable digital guage that I can move between my cages. All humidity comes from misting and having live plants.

Plants - Yes, 2 live cane plants

Placement - The cage is in the corner of our addition/reptile room. It's blocked by an open French door, when needed, and has walls on 2 sides of it. The cage sits on a utility sink, so the top of the cage is about 7 feet from the floor.

Location - Naples, FL


Current Problem - Kibi has been towards the back of his cage over the past few days, however I chalked that up to being grumpy. His appetite has also been off a bit, though I have seen him eating. When I went to feed him yesterday he was in the front of the cage and was red (usual coloring is green with purple barring). His eyes were closed and VERY sunken in. I immediately put him in the shower with me for 40 minutes, then wrapped him in a fleece and held him against me, but his eyes were still closed.

We did another shower for 30 minutes before I left for work yesterday. Today I just showered him for 1 hour. While in there today I used an eye dropper to drip water into his mouth and he seemed to take more than he had yesterday. I tried offering a mealworm (the smallest feeder I have available). He would not open his mouth to take it. His eyes are mostly closed - his left eye seems permanately closed at this point.

The vet couldn't fit me in yesterday so we have an appointment for Monday morning. Right now I have him wrapped in a heat pack and my husband is holding him to try to warm him up after his shower before putting him into his cage - the lights are off for the night and I want him dry and warm before putting him to bed.

I know hornworms are great for rehydration, but are there any other methods I can use tomorrow until we can see the vet? My husband can shower him tomorrow a couple of times, and I'll have him try with small feeders as well as the dripper. I'm going to order some hornworms but it'll take a few days before they arrive.

Please, I am willing to do anything to help him - I just don't know what else to try. I have him in his cage each night, but have rigged up a cap holder upside down to act as a basket in case he falls and have a towel under that as a back up. His grip still seems fairly good - but from time to time he tries to grab a front leg with his back leg. I think this is more from having his eyes closed, and not MBD since he's always been suplimented.


Michelle

 

[ChameleonNerd]

i wouldn't worry about the leg grabbing.

i personally do a couple of things if i notice dehydration.
1. Syringe, that's definitely one of the best ways to ensure delivery of water.
2. When my chameleon was getting dehydrated before i worked out my husbandry, i got a small bowl of water, and put a cricket in it. my chameleon kept trying to get the cricket but it kept slipping off her tongue because of the water. she just ended up getting tons of water.

Although not only when i suspect dehydration, i feed her red pepper on a regular basis

 

[absolutbill]

I took Kibi to the vet yesterday morning and he told me that the cause was that Kibi's cage was next to Kimani's. Now, Kimani is a 4 month old veiled, and they have lived next to each other since late October. I have NEVER seen Kibi flare up, hiss, gape, or otherwise show that he's ticked at having a roommate, so I didn't place a divider between the 2 cages. Kibi was pretty mellow, just letting the world slide by, and so I thought that maybe he was ok with Kimani being there.

The vet claims that Kibi probably didn't like it, so just started to slowly whither away. Does this make sense to anyone here? I didn't put up a divider, figuring that at first Kimani was too tiny to even notice. Also, Kibi would bask on the side away from Kimani's cage, and both cages were fully planted.

If anyone else has encountered this, please let me know. Kibi passed last night, but whenever I'm up to a new cham I don't want to make the same mistake, if it were actually a mistake.

 

[reptoman]

Sorry for your loss. I have not had anything that extreme happen but I have had behavior change due to lack of a visual barrier between cages. One cham will retreat to the back of the cage and spend more and more time with their eyes closed during the day. They may not present signs of stress until their health is compromised so this situation makes perfect sense to me. I have visual barriers between all my chams including the females. They will also slowly degrade when in the presence of another cham, male or female. Again, so sorry that you lost your boy.

 

[jannb]

I honestly think that's a bit extreme. I highly doubt that a 4 month old stressed him. I have chams in trees all over my house and the only one that does not like to see the others and it's my veiled and he let's me know by puffing up and doing the tail curling so he has a room to himself. An autopsy might help you to find out what happen. Again I am so very sorry that you lost him.

 

[SilverDragoness]

So sorry for your loss. Seems like there may have been more going on than that to me. You did the right thing by taking him to the veterinarian. It's always saddening to lose a pet.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry for your loss.
You said..."The vet claims that Kibi probably didn't like it, so just started to slowly whither away"...did you put a divider between them after the vet said this? I've seen this happen with males that are about the same size and sexually mature.

In the wild they can move away from each other...in captivity they can't get far enough away.

 

[absolutbill]

Kinyonga - honestly this all happened since Friday. I called that morning and tried to get a vet appointment for that day, but nothing was available until Mon. So, when I got home on Monday from the vet, and learning that it was due to a lack of a divider we put one up. However, it was far too late for that. From now on I will certainly have a divider at all times, no matter the age of the chams.

Kimani is only 4 months old, so not sexually mature yet, which is a big reason why I didn't think the divider was needed at this time. My thought was that when Kimani reached that age, Kibi would start to notice, and then show signs that he was mad and I would put up the divider at that time. I had no idea that Kibi would just wither away like he did.

Michelle

 

[Undertow11]

First, I will always recommend placing a visual barrier between all chameleons at all times. They are very territorial by nature and in a chameleon staring contest there are no winners.

Second, I can offer a tip for fighting dehydration. When a chameleon stops eating/drinking and starts to lose a lot of weight and/or become dehydrated, it is beneficial (and sometimes necessary) to force feed the chameleon to bump their levels back up to a healthy balance. Any reptile vet who's worth anything will be able to show you how to tube feed a chameleon. It's really rather simple, but it's still best to watch a professional do it before trying it yourself.
Tube feeding a chameleon is essentially exactly what it sounds like.
It involves placing a probe down the chameleon's throat and pumping the food directly into the chameleon's stomach to ensure that the food is properly absorbed by the body. It is the best and most direct way to provide proper nutrition and hydration for a chameleon who refuses to eat/drink.
The best form of food to use when force feeding is a powder mix. Most vets who specialize in reptiles will have a mix ready and some vets will even give you a full syringe you can use several times (provided you place it in the freezer between uses to keep it fresh). As you become more involved with chameleons, you will be able to make your own mix of vitamins and nutrients to use, but for the average hobbyist it's probably easier to just see a vet (I think I remember hearing Repashy makes a product that can be mixed with water and used as a nice tube feeding base also, but I have never tried it myself). If you're in a pinch and need a quick solution, baby food will work. Preferrably one of the meat varieties (chicken&gravy, turkey&gravy, etc.). Baby food is inexpensive and easy to find and it will get the job done, although a special reptile mix will always be the best choice (when mixed properly, the mix should have the consistency of baby food... nice and soft and able to be easily distributed via a syringe).
A general rule of thumb is to provide a tube feeding every other day, and on the days inbetween you should just provide water (drops or small squirts in the mouth several times a day). Certain situations may call for more or less, just be sure not to go overboard with it as there is no way to immediately fix severe dehydration... it takes time and effort.
The amount of food injected in each feeding will vary based on the chameleon's size and weight (once again, best to ask your vet until you're experienced enough to take your own measurements at home).
Below are pictures of the equipment I use when force feeding...
The syringes are pretty basic and can be purchased online at several reptile outlets (vets often have them onhand too, and they'll usually hook you up with a few to take home).
The real key is the metal attachment... I've tried tubes (actual rubber tubes made for this purpose), but they are a pain in the butt compared to using the little metal probe. The first pic shows the two pieces separated. The second pic shows how the metal piece fits on the end of the syringe and provides the length necessary to probe down the throat to the stomach (which, for the record, a panther chameleon's stomach is located roughly just behind the shoulder blade in terms of how far in the probe should reach). When looking at the metal probe, be sure to note the ball on the end, as it's important the end is rounded as opposed to sharp (this is probably common sense, but obviously if you stick something sharp down a chameleon's throat you risk puncturing the animal). Anyway, the metal attachment makes all the difference, as it slides easily and steadily down the throat and it won't bend or break if the chameleon gets pissed and tries to bite down (which does happen, often).
After you've done it a few times, it becomes as easy as loading the syringe with food, putting the metal tip on, and administering the food to the chameleon. The whole process takes only a couple of minutes (not counting thawing time if you are using a frozen mix). It's a skill that will give you the ammunition you need to fight dehydration and stubborn eaters.
It's always best to let the chameleon take care of itself, but it's nice to know you have an option if circumstances require that you take action.
Sorry for the lack of detail, this post is kind of the cliff-notes version, but anyone who's interested can follow up with a reptile vet and get all the detailed info.
I have successfully pulled several chameleons out of the spiral of death by patiently following a tube-feeding regimen and although it's something no chameleon owner ever wants to face, it's best to be prepared just in case.
Best wishes,
rth

 

[absolutbill]

Undertow - thank you for the valuable information. Unfortunately I've never had to forcefeed a cham, and my vet said to just stick a mealworm down into his mouth and he'd swallow it. Sidenote - I don't feed mealworms to my chams, however it was the smallest feeder I had on hand, and thought the benefits of nutrition would outweigh any negative aspects.

When I got home from the vet, I did just that. I dropped 4 mealworms, one at a time into his mouth and tried to push them towards the back - I avoided the windpipe which the vet did show me. I only dropped the 2nd when I thought the first one had been swallowed - I had my husband shine a flashlight down into his throat to check, and they seemed gone. I was under the impression that they have an esophagus like we do, so that if I didn't see the mealworm then it was in his stomach.

I had hope until he vomited up the last meal worm. I put him in his cage under his basking light, and a couple of hours later he had passed away. Through this experience I've learned a lot of valuable lessons, namely not to think that just because one isn't sexually mature that they won't get stressed out. And, thanks to you I now know the proper way to forcefeed, which hopefully I'll never need to use again. I don't want anyone to think that I'm taking this lightly - after 3 1/2 years in my care I thought that I was ready to undertake a 2nd chameleon, but never in my dreams did I think that would have been at the detriment of Kibi. I guess it goes to show that no matter how prepared you think you may be, and no matter how much you read and time you spend on here, things will always come up. Thank you all again for your insight and information.

Michelle

 

[Undertow11]

Undertow - thank you for the valuable information. Unfortunately I've never had to forcefeed a cham, and my vet said to just stick a mealworm down into his mouth and he'd swallow it. Sidenote - I don't feed mealworms to my chams, however it was the smallest feeder I had on hand, and thought the benefits of nutrition would outweigh any negative aspects.

When I got home from the vet, I did just that. I dropped 4 mealworms, one at a time into his mouth and tried to push them towards the back - I avoided the windpipe which the vet did show me. I only dropped the 2nd when I thought the first one had been swallowed - I had my husband shine a flashlight down into his throat to check, and they seemed gone. I was under the impression that they have an esophagus like we do, so that if I didn't see the mealworm then it was in his stomach.

I had hope until he vomited up the last meal worm. I put him in his cage under his basking light, and a couple of hours later he had passed away. Through this experience I've learned a lot of valuable lessons, namely not to think that just because one isn't sexually mature that they won't get stressed out. And, thanks to you I now know the proper way to forcefeed, which hopefully I'll never need to use again. I don't want anyone to think that I'm taking this lightly - after 3 1/2 years in my care I thought that I was ready to undertake a 2nd chameleon, but never in my dreams did I think that would have been at the detriment of Kibi. I guess it goes to show that no matter how prepared you think you may be, and no matter how much you read and time you spend on here, things will always come up. Thank you all again for your insight and information.

Michelle

I'd be willing to bet that every decent keeper on the forums has lost at least one chameleon along the way... It sucks, but it's part of the learning curve. I still learn new stuff all the time. All you can really do is try your best, keep an open mind, and pick up as much knowledge as possible