Explaining Clutch Reduction

Nicholasdeaan

Avid Member
It seems I always struggle explaining clutch size and how it's appropriate to cut back feeding and keep the temps lower with females to help contain clutch size. Today I got scowled several times for promoting this and was told one my females is " poor thing she's under fed how cruel". Or " temps have no role in clutch size or any of this." Now, reason being I'm frustrated is that I always try to explain this rather than someone over feed and keep temps sky high and have their chameleon go eggbound or struggle to lay a massive clutch. Is there any simple way to explain this to people better who don't quite understand or believe this method is effective?
 
You can explain that every egg depletes her body. The more eggs she lays, the more depleted she will become and the sooner she will die. You could mention that production laying hens have osteoporosis by the time they are are in their second season of laying eggs (18 months on) and can end up with broken bones from just jumping down off their sleeping roost. Laying hens are used for one or two seasons and then sent to the land fill. They used to make soup out of them but I'm not sure there is enough left of them to be worthwhile. The term for them is a "spent" hen. Even in a pet-type situation, one of those production breeds will only live to be three years of age before they die from reproductive issues. A chicken's normal life expectancy if 7 or 8 years. Maybe that might help explain it. Do a little research on the facts--I just gave you this off the top of my head. You don't need to use PETA propaganda because it doesn't need to be exaggerated to sound pretty awful. They might be able to relate to a chicken since it is something everyone is familiar with.
 
The way I explain it is that the female's body determines how many eggs to produce based on the availability of resources and how good of an environment it is for babies. It's an evolutionary mechanism to not overtax the female if resources are too scarce to support making large clutches (big toll on their bodies as jajeanpierre said) or produce too many babies in an unfavorable environment where many will likely die. Like in a prolonged drought, the body should make smaller clutches since there are fewer bugs and water sources available. But in a nice warm rainy season that's a good time to make larger clutches because that's when there are an abundance of resources to support both female and new babies. So if you give the female a lot of food and nice warm tropical temperatures her body is getting all the signals for "this is a perfect place for babies! Make LOTS of them!" So she makes a ton of eggs (60+ sometimes) which uses a ton of calcium and other nutrients and is a big strain for laying. However by limiting her resources so she is still getting enough to be healthy and thrive, but not enough to simulate over abundance (feasting all the time in a tropical paradise) she will produce a smaller clutch size that's more appropriate for normal conditions and takes less of a toll on her body. You are not depriving her by any means, merely simulating her natural environment that normally has much more hardship a little more closely to protect her body and prolong her life.
 
You can explain that every egg depletes her body. The more eggs she lays, the more depleted she will become and the sooner she will die. You could mention that production laying hens have osteoporosis by the time they are are in their second season of laying eggs (18 months on) and can end up with broken bones from just jumping down off their sleeping roost. Laying hens are used for one or two seasons and then sent to the land fill. They used to make soup out of them but I'm not sure there is enough left of them to be worthwhile. The term for them is a "spent" hen. Even in a pet-type situation, one of those production breeds will only live to be three years of age before they die from reproductive issues. A chicken's normal life expectancy if 7 or 8 years. Maybe that might help explain it. Do a little research on the facts--I just gave you this off the top of my head. You don't need to use PETA propaganda because it doesn't need to be exaggerated to sound pretty awful. They might be able to relate to a chicken since it is something everyone is familiar with.
The way I explain it is that the female's body determines how many eggs to produce based on the availability of resources and how good of an environment it is for babies. It's an evolutionary mechanism to not overtax the female if resources are too scarce to support making large clutches (big toll on their bodies as jajeanpierre said) or produce too many babies in an unfavorable environment where many will likely die. Like in a prolonged drought, the body should make smaller clutches since there are fewer bugs and water sources available. But in a nice warm rainy season that's a good time to make larger clutches because that's when there are an abundance of resources to support both female and new babies. So if you give the female a lot of food and nice warm tropical temperatures her body is getting all the signals for "this is a perfect place for babies! Make LOTS of them!" So she makes a ton of eggs (60+ sometimes) which uses a ton of calcium and other nutrients and is a big strain for laying. However by limiting her resources so she is still getting enough to be healthy and thrive, but not enough to simulate over abundance (feasting all the time in a tropical paradise) she will produce a smaller clutch size that's more appropriate for normal conditions and takes less of a toll on her body. You are not depriving her by any means, merely simulating her natural environment that normally has much more hardship a little more closely to protect her body and prolong her life.
Very well put! Thank you! The hen idea may help. So should the comparisons of food and etc.in the wild to what they're offered in captivity. People don't realize that certain conditions are tweaked in captivity to over all up the life spans of chameleons. I tried to explain it in a similar manner with no luck. Maybe this will help. But rather I got responses such as " you're depriving a growing chameleon from food, this will stunt her growth and bone structure, making her just as likely to become egg bound." Or my favorite " A 5 month old veiled should be no less than 100 grams. She's underweight and needs to be fed all that she can eat up UNTILL she's gravid." Several people tore me a new one. I by no means am concerned with my chameleons health. I keep my females cut back on food and housed in lower temps. It's what one of the first things I learned when joining the forums. It was @jannb blog I read that informed me of this. And I've seen so many people over feed their females and keep them much to warm and then wonder why their females didn't survive the first clutch or become egg bound. It's a facebook group Chameleon Central USA. There are some great people and keepers on there. Pretty neat group. Sometimes it can be a train wreck on there though. Hopefully I'm allowed to mention the name. If not please remove it.
 
I've never even seen a female Panther 100g. Most are in the 60-80g range. I'm sure there are some larger females, and it varies with species, but to call that a rule is a little ridiculous.

The problem you're having right now is why myself and many other respected members here are not part of that group. ;) There are good keepers there, but there are also a lot of very vocal opinionated members that make you want to hit your head against a wall.
 
I've never even seen a female Panther 100g. Most are in the 60-80g range. I'm sure there are some larger females, and it varies with species, but to call that a rule is a little ridiculous.

The problem you're having right now is why myself and many other respected members here are not part of that group. ;) There are good keepers there, but there are also a lot of very vocal opinionated members that make you want to hit your head against a wall.
My point exactly. A 100 gram female at 5 months old is just massive! Lol

I don't blame any of you guys one bit! I think my blood pressure spikes every time I'm on that page ;) No worries though, I left the group. Problem solved
 
I'm curious as to what temps you recommend for say warm loving species and montanes. When do you lower the temps for the gravid female? Do you calculate food by percentage of body weight or some other means? I'm familiar with this idea, support it, and would enjoy more information on the subject, if you could share any links or other information.
 
@Nicholasdeaan - It's crazy..... when you tagged me in that on FB, quite a few people were trying to tell you that your Veiled is sickly, and underfed, and underweight..... they all so dumb. Those are people who fail to research ANYTHING. Then you come here, start this thread, and NOBODY has told you that you are doing it wrong.

Funny how that works.....

Facebook = drama B.S.
Chameleon Forums = world's largest community of knowledgeable members and breeders
 
Well said ferrit!

As all/most of you on here know, I have been able to stop reproduction in veiled females completely by the way I keep them and can also have them produce eggs by making changes. If I start right after a female lays eggs by feeding her well for two or three days to build her back up and then decreasing her food somewhat and lowering her temperature (just to take the edge off her hunger) a couple of degrees F the female's will usually stop producing eggs. almost all my female veileds live to be 7years old.

With panthers, I haven't stopped the reproduction completely but they lay small clutches.

Be careful not to cut things so low that the chameleon gets thin.

It's a shame people have to give others a hard time about this.
I even had a vet tell me I was going to cause organ damage by doing it. I told him my female veiled chameleons usually live to be 7 and he was welcome to check the necropsy reports from all the female chameleons bodies I had brought in over the years to see that no organ damage was mentioned.
 
Well said ferrit!

As all/most of you on here know, I have been able to stop reproduction in veiled females completely by the way I keep them and can also have them produce eggs by making changes. If I start right after a female lays eggs by feeding her well for two or three days to build her back up and then decreasing her food somewhat and lowering her temperature (just to take the edge off her hunger) a couple of degrees F the female's will usually stop producing eggs. almost all my female veileds live to be 7years old.

With panthers, I haven't stopped the reproduction completely but they lay small clutches.

Be careful not to cut things so low that the chameleon gets thin.

It's a shame people have to give others a hard time about this.
I even had a vet tell me I was going to cause organ damage by doing it. I told him my female veiled chameleons usually live to be 7 and he was welcome to check the necropsy reports from all the female chameleons bodies I had brought in over the years to see that no organ damage was mentioned.
To bad people won't bother to stop and read this. I'm trying to prevent clutches at all. I know some will have a small one at sexual maturity no matter what, but large clutch sizes are very preventable. I knew people here would have my back on this. It just drives me nuts how social media like facebook can have such a big impact on these reptiles and no one bothers to do any research themselves. The social stigma is ridiculous.
 
I see the posts on FB too- especially with veiled females. "My girl just laid 75 eggs! She's so awesome!" It is as though it's a contest or something... I do not understand why you would NOT want to reduce the production of infertile eggs. I reduce temps and food for my female ambilobe and have definitely been able to reduce clutch size, but have not been able to keep her from laying altogether. Too may people overfeed their chameleons though. Sometimes I see threads even here that when people list what they feed adults in a day, I am thinking that's what my guys get in a week!
 
I'm curious as to how this applies to species that brumate. Do you cool them down, reduce food and water, then warm them up and offer ample food and water, until copulation, then cool them again? I'll take a look through the forum and see if I can find more information. This is something people weren't talking about 10 years ago! Well done kinyonga and others.
 
Extensionofgreen...you said..."this is something people weren't talking about 10 years ago" do you mean with those that brumate or just controlling reproduction? I've been controlling reproduction in veiled chameleons for well over 10years.
 
I never bothered trying to control reproduction in seasonal breeders or brumators (which are generally only breeding seasonally too) because they get a rest from breeding naturally. In veileds and panthers, once they start producing in captivity they don't get to shut down without some "help" from us IMHO.
 
I don't recall reading or hearing about controlling reproduction, 10 years ago. That is no way challenging your statement that you were doing so 10 years ago, it may be that my memory is not great or more likely that I was so focused on my melleri, that I didn't tune into much information on other species. Either way, I think it is a very sensible and wise approach to keeping chameleons that produce several clutches a year, especially for females that are not being bred.
 
You can explain that every egg depletes her body. The more eggs she lays, the more depleted she will become and the sooner she will die. You could mention that production laying hens have osteoporosis by the time they are are in their second season of laying eggs (18 months on) and can end up with broken bones from just jumping down off their sleeping roost. Laying hens are used for one or two seasons and then sent to the land fill. They used to make soup out of them but I'm not sure there is enough left of them to be worthwhile. The term for them is a "spent" hen. Even in a pet-type situation, one of those production breeds will only live to be three years of age before they die from reproductive issues. A chicken's normal life expectancy if 7 or 8 years. Maybe that might help explain it. Do a little research on the facts--I just gave you this off the top of my head. You don't need to use PETA propaganda because it doesn't need to be exaggerated to sound pretty awful. They might be able to relate to a chicken since it is something everyone is familiar with.
Hi so my female panther is about 6 months. Is now a good time to cut back on feeding to 3-4 feeders every other day?
 
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