Expert opinion needed please

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
Could it be a perpetual snarl? Lord knows she hates my guts! Seriously though, I've never noticed, and looking back though pics, she's always held her mouth that way on the left side. How do I check for swelling? Better question, what does swelling look like? She gets her stress colors on as soon as I look at her. Her markings will turn black with hate if I handle her, so trying to do as little of that as possible.
LOL your funny. Nope not a snarl. Definitely something going on there. Could be swelling/mouth rot, or something she was born with. An issue of incorrect UVB or supplementation as well.
 
Alright, let me fill out the form to make sure there are't husbandry issues. I'll try to get a good look at her mouth when I get home. She loves trying to bite me when I dare put my hand in the cage, so that should give me a good look. In the meantime here are 2 pic same day as the others(1st 2- less gap), and 2 pics a couple days after we got her. She's eating well, shed once.
 

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If female chams were made of sugar and spice, someone forgot the sugar in mine. Hissy, hissy, snappy, snappy, "hate you" vibes. She's stressing ME out when I do my janitorial duties. I mean poop does not magically disappear, I do have to stick my yucky human hand in the cage to do that. Seriously, I am stressed out that she is so stressed. Wish she would get used to me...
 

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
If female chams were made of sugar and spice, someone forgot the sugar in mine. Hissy, hissy, snappy, snappy, "hate you" vibes. She's stressing ME out when I do my janitorial duties. I mean poop does not magically disappear, I do have to stick my yucky human hand in the cage to do that. Seriously, I am stressed out that she is so stressed. Wish she would get used to me...
I think this is one case where buying from a good breeder makes a difference. Babies that have been exposed to humans and hands do not typically have that extreme fear response. Right now she views you as the giant that could hurt her. Might take a look at the blog I did on trust building. :)
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

The truth is there is never a guarantee on temperament. You just move slow and go at their pace. Become the great food bringer and then they learn to trust.
 
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - 3.5-4 mos old female panther chameleon, had her for 2.5 weeks.
  • Handling - Handled her 4 times so far. Plan to handle 1/week when cleaning her cage. Would love to more often, as in taking her out to get real sun on her "outside" tree (potted ficus that I would move outside).
  • Feeding - Dubia roaches, crickets, BSF. She will not eat out of a dish, so no go on bsfl, some of them turned to flies and she loved those. Put about 10-15 crickets in the cage in the morning and they're not there in when I come from work and have not seen them in the house. Waiting on my order for the shooting gallery ( @Beman your tip) to get a better count. Gut loading with Rephasy superload.
  • Supplements - Every feeding Zoo Med Repticalcium without D3, Sundays I alternate Reptivite without D3 and Rep-Cal ph free WITH D3
  • Watering - Using an auto mister, right now it's set to go 25 seconds every 2 hrs during the 12hr lights on period. I have seen her drink.
  • Fecal Description - Black and white droppings. Not tested

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - screen cage 18X18X36. Using it for know because she was soooooo tiny when I got her. Have the XL one (24x24x48) in a box.
  • Lighting - Basking light is a incandescent 65W, T5 5.0 for the UVB, about 4-5 inches to screen and 4 inches to branch and lastly plant lights. UVB and plant are on 12hrs/day, basking 8 hrs,
  • Temperature -How do you measure these temps? Basking zone 80, mid cage 73. Lowest o/n I saw - 65. Measuring with temp gun and cage fixed thermometer/hygrometer combo at 2 different levels in the cage.
  • Humidity - Before the new mister I struggled to keep the humidity above 40 in the daytime, frequently hand misting. With the mister humidity is around 60 during the day, 75-80 at night. I covered 2 walls of the enclosure with plastic, using a fogger at night, mist every 2 hrs, measure with hygrometers.
  • Plants - Live plants, pothos and ficus.
  • Placement - At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? We just moved her cage to a quieter room, the original spot was in a high traffic area. It is not near any fans or vents. Top of cage is about 5`10`` ft from ground.
  • Location - Maryland
 
I think this is one case where buying from a good breeder makes a difference. Babies that have been exposed to humans and hands do not typically have that extreme fear response. Right now she views you as the giant that could hurt her. Might take a look at the blog I did on trust building. :)
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

The truth is there is never a guarantee on temperament. You just move slow and go at their pace. Become the great food bringer and then they learn to trust.
OMG< I did read your blog and I tried that yesterday. She wanted to bite me so bad she was trying to go around the worm to my fingers. I ended up putting the worm halfway in her mouth and she chomped chomped it. I offered a second worm, same thing. I ran away afterwards.
 

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
OMG< I did read your blog and I tried that yesterday. She wanted to bite me so bad she was trying to go around the worm to my fingers. I ended up putting the worm halfway in her mouth and she chomped chomped it. I offered a second worm, same thing. I ran away afterwards.
LOL it takes time. I had Beman's cage right next to my desk so he could watch me. I tried to never make eye contact in the beginning and to always sit lower than him so he felt safe. It took a few weeks for him to understand I was the great bringer of food. Another thing I did was always use the same cup for his feeders so he would see the cup and he learned that I was about to pour his food into his feeder run.

I will say they do not want to intentionally bite unless they feel a real threat. She may huff and puff and show you her intimidation tactics but it is mostly show. In the almost 4 years that I have been in this forum I have met very few people that have chams that are downright aggressive. Most tolerate their humans. My boy is much older now he just turned 4 years old. He is very picky about me being in his enclosure and will show me that I am not welcome but he has never bitten me. He sees his cup and calms down knowing I am bringing food. Or will just watch me while I clean the cage. I do not try to take him out unless he comes to me to climb up.
 

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - 3.5-4 mos old female panther chameleon, had her for 2.5 weeks.
  • Handling - Handled her 4 times so far. Plan to handle 1/week when cleaning her cage. Would love to more often, as in taking her out to get real sun on her "outside" tree (potted ficus that I would move outside).
  • Feeding - Dubia roaches, crickets, BSF. She will not eat out of a dish, so no go on bsfl, some of them turned to flies and she loved those. Put about 10-15 crickets in the cage in the morning and they're not there in when I come from work and have not seen them in the house. Waiting on my order for the shooting gallery ( @Beman your tip) to get a better count. Gut loading with Rephasy superload.
  • Supplements - Every feeding Zoo Med Repticalcium without D3, Sundays I alternate Reptivite without D3 and Rep-Cal ph free WITH D3
  • Watering - Using an auto mister, right now it's set to go 25 seconds every 2 hrs during the 12hr lights on period. I have seen her drink.
  • Fecal Description - Black and white droppings. Not tested

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - screen cage 18X18X36. Using it for know because she was soooooo tiny when I got her. Have the XL one (24x24x48) in a box.
  • Lighting - Basking light is a incandescent 65W, T5 5.0 for the UVB, about 4-5 inches to screen and 4 inches to branch and lastly plant lights. UVB and plant are on 12hrs/day, basking 8 hrs,
  • Temperature -How do you measure these temps? Basking zone 80, mid cage 73. Lowest o/n I saw - 65. Measuring with temp gun and cage fixed thermometer/hygrometer combo at 2 different levels in the cage.
  • Humidity - Before the new mister I struggled to keep the humidity above 40 in the daytime, frequently hand misting. With the mister humidity is around 60 during the day, 75-80 at night. I covered 2 walls of the enclosure with plastic, using a fogger at night, mist every 2 hrs, measure with hygrometers.
  • Plants - Live plants, pothos and ficus.
  • Placement - At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? We just moved her cage to a quieter room, the original spot was in a high traffic area. It is not near any fans or vents. Top of cage is about 5`10`` ft from ground.
  • Location - Maryland
If you could upload pics for me of the cage as well that would be great. I will start going through your form now.
 
LOL it takes time. I had Beman's cage right next to my desk so he could watch me. I tried to never make eye contact in the beginning and to always sit lower than him so he felt safe. It took a few weeks for him to understand I was the great bringer of food. Another thing I did was always use the same cup for his feeders so he would see the cup and he learned that I was about to pour his food into his feeder run.

I will say they do not want to intentionally bite unless they feel a real threat. She may huff and puff and show you her intimidation tactics but it is mostly show. In the almost 4 years that I have been in this forum I have met very few people that have chams that are downright aggressive. Most tolerate their humans. My boy is much older now he just turned 4 years old. He is very picky about me being in his enclosure and will show me that I am not welcome but he has never bitten me. He sees his cup and calms down knowing I am bringing food. Or will just watch me while I clean the cage. I do not try to take him out unless he comes to me to climb up.
Thank you for sharing. I know I sound like I'm complaining but I somehow enjoy her spunk. I try to be very patient. I just feel very sad that whatever I do seems to just stress her. BTW she did bite me once. She managed to bite my nail, cuz she's so tiny, no biggie. Giving her the benefit of the doubt because it happened when I was offering the worm.
 

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
@ChamFamFan See my feedback in bold.

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - 3.5-4 mos old female panther chameleon, had her for 2.5 weeks.
  • Handling - Handled her 4 times so far. Plan to handle 1/week when cleaning her cage. Would love to more often, as in taking her out to get real sun on her "outside" tree (potted ficus that I would move outside). Try utilizing the tools in my blog to gain trust and just be patient this can take time.
  • Feeding - Dubia roaches, crickets, BSF. She will not eat out of a dish, so no go on bsfl, some of them turned to flies and she loved those. Put about 10-15 crickets in the cage in the morning and they're not there in when I come from work and have not seen them in the house. Waiting on my order for the shooting gallery ( @Beman your tip) to get a better count. Gut loading with Rephasy superload. I would use repashy bug burger for the roaches it is lower in protein than the superload. Lower protein is better when it comes to roaches because they can store Uric acid. I love the shooting gallery. And I think this is going to help. Because she will identify that as her feeding zone and that you are putting the food in there. :)
  • Supplements - Every feeding Zoo Med Repticalcium without D3, Sundays I alternate Reptivite without D3 and Rep-Cal ph free WITH D3 This is good. Another option just tossing it out there... You can replace the reptivite and the repcal with D3 with Repashy calcium plus LoD version. Then this is given two times a month only say the 1st and the 15th. I like this product it is a very fine powder that does not cake on the insects. Then of course all other feedings you would use the calcium without D3.
  • Watering - Using an auto mister, right now it's set to go 25 seconds every 2 hrs during the 12hr lights on period. I have seen her drink. Might switch this up and do longer mistings less frequently. Which auto mister did you get? Longer sessions trigger a drinking response better and allows them to clean their eyes.
  • Fecal Description - Black and white droppings. Not tested I always recommend this as a just in case... Some nasty parasites out there.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - screen cage 18X18X36. Using it for know because she was soooooo tiny when I got her. Have the XL one (24x24x48) in a box. This is fine for now. I would upgrade her though in another month or two as long as the fecal comes back clean.
  • Lighting - Basking light is a incandescent 65W, T5 5.0 for the UVB, about 4-5 inches to screen and 4 inches to branch and lastly plant lights. UVB and plant are on 12hrs/day, basking 8 hrs, This is perfect. Distance to branch and screen are correct as well to keep her in safe UVI levels. Make sure heat fixture is lifted up off the cage in case she screen climbs.
  • Temperature -How do you measure these temps? Basking zone 80, mid cage 73. Lowest o/n I saw - 65. Measuring with temp gun and cage fixed thermometer/hygrometer combo at 2 different levels in the cage. Good and I would also recommend adding in a gauge with a probe at the basking site. Temp guns measure the surface so you want a really accurate basking level temp.
  • Humidity - Before the new mister I struggled to keep the humidity above 40 in the daytime, frequently hand misting. With the mister humidity is around 60 during the day, 75-80 at night. I covered 2 walls of the enclosure with plastic, using a fogger at night, mist every 2 hrs, measure with hygrometers. This is good. Daytime you want that 50-60% range. But if it does drop to 40% in between it is ok. The more live plants you have the better your humidity will hold. You can also cover the back and two sides so that 3 sides are covered to retain humidity and stabilize temps better. I would change up misting though as I said above.
  • Plants - Live plants, pothos and ficus.
  • Placement - At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? We just moved her cage to a quieter room, the original spot was in a high traffic area. It is not near any fans or vents. Top of cage is about 5`10`` ft from ground. Good and when you move her into the big girl cage she will sit high in the room. This is really important because if they are higher they feel safe.
  • Location - Maryland
 
@ChamFamFan See my feedback in bold.

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - 3.5-4 mos old female panther chameleon, had her for 2.5 weeks.
  • Handling - Handled her 4 times so far. Plan to handle 1/week when cleaning her cage. Would love to more often, as in taking her out to get real sun on her "outside" tree (potted ficus that I would move outside). Try utilizing the tools in my blog to gain trust and just be patient this can take time.
  • Feeding - Dubia roaches, crickets, BSF. She will not eat out of a dish, so no go on bsfl, some of them turned to flies and she loved those. Put about 10-15 crickets in the cage in the morning and they're not there in when I come from work and have not seen them in the house. Waiting on my order for the shooting gallery ( @Beman your tip) to get a better count. Gut loading with Rephasy superload. I would use repashy bug burger for the roaches it is lower in protein than the superload. Lower protein is better when it comes to roaches because they can store Uric acid. I love the shooting gallery. And I think this is going to help. Because she will identify that as her feeding zone and that you are putting the food in there. :)
  • Supplements - Every feeding Zoo Med Repticalcium without D3, Sundays I alternate Reptivite without D3 and Rep-Cal ph free WITH D3 This is good. Another option just tossing it out there... You can replace the reptivite and the repcal with D3 with Repashy calcium plus LoD version. Then this is given two times a month only say the 1st and the 15th. I like this product it is a very fine powder that does not cake on the insects. Then of course all other feedings you would use the calcium without D3.
  • Watering - Using an auto mister, right now it's set to go 25 seconds every 2 hrs during the 12hr lights on period. I have seen her drink. Might switch this up and do longer mistings less frequently. Which auto mister did you get? Longer sessions trigger a drinking response better and allows them to clean their eyes.
  • Fecal Description - Black and white droppings. Not tested I always recommend this as a just in case... Some nasty parasites out there.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - screen cage 18X18X36. Using it for know because she was soooooo tiny when I got her. Have the XL one (24x24x48) in a box. This is fine for now. I would upgrade her though in another month or two as long as the fecal comes back clean.
  • Lighting - Basking light is a incandescent 65W, T5 5.0 for the UVB, about 4-5 inches to screen and 4 inches to branch and lastly plant lights. UVB and plant are on 12hrs/day, basking 8 hrs, This is perfect. Distance to branch and screen are correct as well to keep her in safe UVI levels. Make sure heat fixture is lifted up off the cage in case she screen climbs.
  • Temperature -How do you measure these temps? Basking zone 80, mid cage 73. Lowest o/n I saw - 65. Measuring with temp gun and cage fixed thermometer/hygrometer combo at 2 different levels in the cage. Good and I would also recommend adding in a gauge with a probe at the basking site. Temp guns measure the surface so you want a really accurate basking level temp.
  • Humidity - Before the new mister I struggled to keep the humidity above 40 in the daytime, frequently hand misting. With the mister humidity is around 60 during the day, 75-80 at night. I covered 2 walls of the enclosure with plastic, using a fogger at night, mist every 2 hrs, measure with hygrometers. This is good. Daytime you want that 50-60% range. But if it does drop to 40% in between it is ok. The more live plants you have the better your humidity will hold. You can also cover the back and two sides so that 3 sides are covered to retain humidity and stabilize temps better. I would change up misting though as I said above.
  • Plants - Live plants, pothos and ficus.
  • Placement - At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? We just moved her cage to a quieter room, the original spot was in a high traffic area. It is not near any fans or vents. Top of cage is about 5`10`` ft from ground. Good and when you move her into the big girl cage she will sit high in the room. This is really important because if they are higher they feel safe.
  • Location - Maryland
Thank you so much! I'm so glad I don;t have any major errors, I spend so much time researching and reading (full nights) to make sure I provide a good environment.
Didn't know about Rephasy Calcium plus LoD when I bought all the supplements, which was way, way b4 I got the cham. I followed the recs from Neptune the Chameleon YouTube channel. Wish I had known, would simplify my crazy schedule keeping. Sheesh, I guess I am crazy.
I'll get the Bug Burger.
The light fixture had been raised the next day after the picture was taken.
The mister is a no name mister from Amazon. Would have loved a mistking but money is super tight right now (long story short, we also have a 17 y.o. dog with heart disease and blew through 5k in 3 days for an emergency episode). Only got it 3 days ago, I'm still tweaking the settings. The room I moved the cage to has dif temp and lower humidity than my other one which is literally 6 ft away, but this one is a semi-basement one (half ground level, half below). The difference in temp and humidity threw me for a spin, trying to find the sweet spot both for temp (lowered the basking light a bit) and humidity.

I hate saying this, I will be struggling to decide on keeping her. One of the reasons we got a cham was because we have admired them for a long, long time and when my kids' 1st pet ever passed away (old age), when the mourning wouldn't end, I floated the idea of "rainbow" cham. My kids were so,so,so,so excited and they've been super involved with feeding, supplementing, keeping the schedule (of course I get to clean the poop) and super good with not handling her. They were deflated when I mentioned it might be a girl. The heart wants what the heart wants and I can understand how disheartening it can be to put in a lot of time, work, resources into something that does not meet your expectations.
Secondly, I am terrified of the extra potential issues that come with females. So many things can go wrong with chams, generally speaking, and given a choice I would rather not have one more thing to worry about (and I do worry, all the time).
I've been communicating with the breeder (5 days ago he was still insisting it was a boy), but he went into radio silence when I re-opened the convo and asked him to show me the invisible bulge and pattern. I literally don't know what to do because I want the best possible situation for her if we cannot come to terms with her being a girl.

Thank you so much for reviewing my set up, your advice and "listening" to my life story. LOL.
 

Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
Thank you so much! I'm so glad I don;t have any major errors, I spend so much time researching and reading (full nights) to make sure I provide a good environment.
Didn't know about Rephasy Calcium plus LoD when I bought all the supplements, which was way, way b4 I got the cham. I followed the recs from Neptune the Chameleon YouTube channel. Wish I had known, would simplify my crazy schedule keeping. Sheesh, I guess I am crazy.
I'll get the Bug Burger.
The light fixture had been raised the next day after the picture was taken.
The mister is a no name mister from Amazon. Would have loved a mistking but money is super tight right now (long story short, we also have a 17 y.o. dog with heart disease and blew through 5k in 3 days for an emergency episode). Only got it 3 days ago, I'm still tweaking the settings. The room I moved the cage to has dif temp and lower humidity than my other one which is literally 6 ft away, but this one is a semi-basement one (half ground level, half below). The difference in temp and humidity threw me for a spin, trying to find the sweet spot both for temp (lowered the basking light a bit) and humidity.

I hate saying this, I will be struggling to decide on keeping her. One of the reasons we got a cham was because we have admired them for a long, long time and when my kids' 1st pet ever passed away (old age), when the mourning wouldn't end, I floated the idea of "rainbow" cham. My kids were so,so,so,so excited and they've been super involved with feeding, supplementing, keeping the schedule (of course I get to clean the poop) and super good with not handling her. They were deflated when I mentioned it might be a girl. The heart wants what the heart wants and I can understand how disheartening it can be to put in a lot of time, work, resources into something that does not meet your expectations.
Secondly, I am terrified of the extra potential issues that come with females. So many things can go wrong with chams, generally speaking, and given a choice I would rather not have one more thing to worry about (and I do worry, all the time).
I've been communicating with the breeder (5 days ago he was still insisting it was a boy), but he went into radio silence when I re-opened the convo and asked him to show me the invisible bulge and pattern. I literally don't know what to do because I want the best possible situation for her if we cannot come to terms with her being a girl.

Thank you so much for reviewing my set up, your advice and "listening" to my life story. LOL.
Maybe I can provide some comfort regarding it being female. Because honestly you may never hear from the breeder depending on how ethical they are.

But females can be gorgeous as well little pink panthers at times. They also can be more gentle in the long run then males. Males really can be defensive of territory. Now as far as egg laying. With temps being correct of 78-80 basking and a reduced feeding amount as she matures. Always having access to a lay bin. Proper supplementation and UVB along with husbandry your chances of eggbinding issues are much lower.

Males have their own issues. Sperm plugs that have to be removed because maybe hydration or humidity is off and they are not shedding them properly. Also prolapse is common in males.

While I totally get your frustration of thinking you were getting one thing and not. Don't discount her ability to be the perfect fit either.

Male or Female this is a HARD hobby lol. The ins and outs that you have to know. I can not tell you how many sleepless nights I had after I got into the hobby. So many inaccurate sites out there and so many people preaching out dated info. I thought my brain was going to explode. Much like you I stressed all the details. I was about 2 years in when that mellowed significantly lol.

Whatever you decide no one hear will judge you. You have to do what is best for you and your family. And of course it will come down to what the breeder is actually willing to do for you.
Heck maybe the answer is keeping her and getting a gorgeous ankify from FramsChams. I highly recommend them and Kammerflage for panther chameleons.

Anyways if you have any questions. My name is Becca and I am happy to help. :)
 
Maybe I can provide some comfort regarding it being female. Because honestly you may never hear from the breeder depending on how ethical they are.

But females can be gorgeous as well little pink panthers at times. They also can be more gentle in the long run then males. Males really can be defensive of territory. Now as far as egg laying. With temps being correct of 78-80 basking and a reduced feeding amount as she matures. Always having access to a lay bin. Proper supplementation and UVB along with husbandry your chances of eggbinding issues are much lower.

Males have their own issues. Sperm plugs that have to be removed because maybe hydration or humidity is off and they are not shedding them properly. Also prolapse is common in males.

While I totally get your frustration of thinking you were getting one thing and not. Don't discount her ability to be the perfect fit either.

Male or Female this is a HARD hobby lol. The ins and outs that you have to know. I can not tell you how many sleepless nights I had after I got into the hobby. So many inaccurate sites out there and so many people preaching out dated info. I thought my brain was going to explode. Much like you I stressed all the details. I was about 2 years in when that mellowed significantly lol.

Whatever you decide no one hear will judge you. You have to do what is best for you and your family. And of course it will come down to what the breeder is actually willing to do for you.
Heck maybe the answer is keeping her and getting a gorgeous ankify from FramsChams. I highly recommend them and Kammerflage for panther chameleons.

Anyways if you have any questions. My name is Becca and I am happy to help. :)

Maybe I can provide some comfort regarding it being female. Because honestly you may never hear from the breeder depending on how ethical they are.

But females can be gorgeous as well little pink panthers at times. They also can be more gentle in the long run then males. Males really can be defensive of territory. Now as far as egg laying. With temps being correct of 78-80 basking and a reduced feeding amount as she matures. Always having access to a lay bin. Proper supplementation and UVB along with husbandry your chances of eggbinding issues are much lower.

Males have their own issues. Sperm plugs that have to be removed because maybe hydration or humidity is off and they are not shedding them properly. Also prolapse is common in males.

While I totally get your frustration of thinking you were getting one thing and not. Don't discount her ability to be the perfect fit either.

Male or Female this is a HARD hobby lol. The ins and outs that you have to know. I can not tell you how many sleepless nights I had after I got into the hobby. So many inaccurate sites out there and so many people preaching out dated info. I thought my brain was going to explode. Much like you I stressed all the details. I was about 2 years in when that mellowed significantly lol.

Whatever you decide no one hear will judge you. You have to do what is best for you and your family. And of course it will come down to what the breeder is actually willing to do for you.
Heck maybe the answer is keeping her and getting a gorgeous ankify from FramsChams. I highly recommend them and Kammerflage for panther chameleons.

Anyways if you have any questions. My name is Becca and I am happy to help. :)
Oh, snap, thanks for reminding me about the prolapse and sperm plug issues. Seen plenty of posts on that.

Just got home and I stand by my snarl theory. Here are some pics minutes apart. Also tried catching the open mouth, I know thy're not great, but best I could do.

Thanks 4 everything Becca. I'm Monica btw.
 

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Beman

Social Media Manager
Staff member
Oh, snap, thanks for reminding me about the prolapse and sperm plug issues. Seen plenty of posts on that.

Just got home and I stand by my snarl theory. Here are some pics minutes apart. Also tried catching the open mouth, I know thy're not great, but best I could do.

Thanks 4 everything Becca. I'm Monica btw.
Yeah there is something going on there. They will cleanly come together when normal without seeing any of the tissue.

She is feisty... But I think that gives them fight and spunk. Then again I do own a Veiled lol.
 
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