Enclosure questions.

[gavriel]

All,

I know most of the community is opposed to using substrate of any form, but I decided to post this question because I am building a custom enclosure that will house Mojo (7 month old panther). I'm wanting to get a breakdown of thoughts from a respected community. I am thinking of building a complete vivarium inside a 3.5' wide, 5' tall and 2' deep "naked" corner entertainment center. Roughly 6 feet of flooring. I have already water proofed the inside and ran the mist system a day with a designed the drainage system which works great. My ideas is below.

I have on order two 34'' Arcadia UVB bulbs on order and a 75 watt heat bulb picked up from the local reptile store, but what about LED's for the dark corners of the new enclosure. I do not want to use a light source that could possible hurt him and the last thing I want to do is blind him or affect his vision. Is LED lighting OK for chameleons?

For a layered substrate system. From bottom to top by layer, it would be wire plastic coated screen door screen, clay balls similar to ZooMed clay Hydroballs (3 inches), more screen, organic substrate (2 inches), then a layer of live sphagnum moss or other type of live moss and a couple plants. Other plants will be planted within the fake wall with drainage holes on the back wall and drained through tubes through the fake wall directly to the drainage system.

It should provide adaquate drainage so water wouldn't pool to breed bacteria, but would supply water to live plants to keep Mojo's humidity levels higher and add some color vs a bare floor. I have another month or so before he needs to be moved to a larger enclosure so I can allow the moss to take root. Currently I am having problems keeping the humidity levels higher than 35% due to gas heating. I have tried a ultrasonic cool humidifier with a 2 inch plastic plumbing directly into his enclosure, but he runs from the fog and goes all emo on me hiding in his corner.

I am hoping to build Mojo a vivarium that he can make home and feel comfortable in without being surrounded by unnatural wooden or screen walls.

All comments and suggestions are welcome. If anyone else has done this, please respond to this thread or feel free to send me a PM.

Thanks,

Gavriel

 

[Decadancin]

O.K., I'll give it a shot. Yes most are opposed to substrate, but it can be done. It does offer some challenges and some dangers, but with the right drainage it could be great. As for LED lighting, for most chameleon enclosures I would say this would be fine. I would not have the lighting down low in the enclosure because this could be less realistic for the chams, but rather have the LED's at the top and facing down. There will be plenty of light to penetrate through the jungle! What kind of lighting for all the plants? A 6500 tube will usually do. Consider also that right now you may have trouble with low humidity, but during the warmer months you might have the opposite problem and have to adjust your misting considerably. Hope this helps! Good luck and can't wait for pictures!!!

 

[Solid Snake]

Use dirt and grass, not moss.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/growing-grass-82452/

 

[Carlton]

The main concerns with cage substrates have more to do with the cham picking up loose surface materials on its tongue and swallowing them, as well as all the surface structure harboring molds and bacteria buildup from fecal matter (both from the cham and from loose feeders). If the cham picks up a chunk of moss, bark chip, etc. it could be loaded with stuff you don't want him ingesting. Sometimes a cham will shoot at a shiny speck thinking its a water droplet. I once had a male veiled who strolled my carpets shooting at every speck of mica he could see. Sphagnum mosses have some fairly sharp spicules on the stems that could injure the cham if it swallows them.

Most live mosses and grasses need pretty bright indirect lighting to thrive, so the typical cham cage situation doesn't suit them. A cham cage shouldn't be kept at a constant high stable humidity level that most mosses will prefer either. The "false bottom" type substrate layers might not be needed for a cham cage situation really. And, all those layers give loose feeders great escapes where they also pick up or ingest organic matter from the substrate. I don't want my cham eating them either. And, any that die form little pockets of more mold and bacteria as they decompose.

I know what you mean when you say you hope to stabilize the cage humidity level using a substrate. Been there done that. Once I did use that recycled sterilized paper pulp cage bedding in a very large cool montane setup and it did fairly well. First I spread several inches of new bedding, got it pretty wet and mashed it down well. Once it dried out some it didn't lift off easily. You can also put a layer of fiberglass window screen on top. But I was in a very dry climate and even so was very careful to watch for mold buildups and kept any fecal material cleaned up right away. At some point, even with a drainage layer, you'll need to recycle or change out all the substrate layers as bacterial will grow eventually. By the time YOU notice odor etc. it may already affect your cham. I suspect chams could be a bit more sensitive to airborne contaminants from soils...such as fungi, molds, or bacteria as they are not really close to the soil in nature after all (except pygmies).

 

[gavriel]

Thanks for the responses. Just wanted to run it by others before I proceeded with any plans. I'll just stick with the angled acrylic flooring I have already installed.

 

[Olimpia]

You could absolutely have a cage with substrate. I have all my other reptiles in naturalistic, planted tanks with dirt, gravel, bark, etc., and I've never had anyone even get slightly sick. I would put my chameleons in cages made the same way but it would weigh too much and isn't practical right now. But I have no qualms about sticking them in a cage outside with a bare floor to grass and dirt. Well hydrated, healthy animals rarely have an issue passing something particulate like soil, just make sure it's organic and doesn't have perlite or anything in it.

I think the trick to keep it hygienic is to make sure it's living soil. As in, you have beneficial bacteria, worms, and other little clean-up crews that churn the soil, aerate it, and keep everything clean. All my tanks are chalked full of earthworms and little isopods and the soil always looks great, any poop I miss is gone fairly quickly, and the plants thrive like nothing else.

The LED lights are also safe, so it's fine to add a strip of them across the top. Or a linear fluorescent light in the 5000-6500k range.

Humidity does not need to be at a perfect, unwavering percentage all day long. It's ok and normal for the readings to vary throughout the day. So as long as you're getting good spikes during mistings for a while each day this should be fine to have a happily hydrated chameleon.

 

[gavriel]

You could absolutely have a cage with substrate. I have all my other reptiles in naturalistic, planted tanks with dirt, gravel, bark, etc., and I've never had anyone even get slightly sick. I would put my chameleons in cages made the same way but it would weigh too much and isn't practical right now. But I have no qualms about sticking them in a cage outside with a bare floor to grass and dirt. Well hydrated, healthy animals rarely have an issue passing something particulate like soil, just make sure it's organic and doesn't have perlite or anything in it.

I think the trick to keep it hygienic is to make sure it's living soil. As in, you have beneficial bacteria, worms, and other little clean-up crews that churn the soil, aerate it, and keep everything clean. All my tanks are chalked full of earthworms and little isopods and the soil always looks great, any poop I miss is gone fairly quickly, and the plants thrive like nothing else.

The LED lights are also safe, so it's fine to add a strip of them across the top. Or a linear fluorescent light in the 5000-6500k range.

Humidity does not need to be at a perfect, unwavering percentage all day long. It's ok and normal for the readings to vary throughout the day. So as long as you're getting good spikes during mistings for a while each day this should be fine to have a happily hydrated chameleon.

Thanks for the reply. Your suggestions are right along the lines I was thinking of doing with the flooring. As for the LED lights, they were strictly going to be for light only in the top right and left corners. Currently Mojo's heat lamp is located in the back left of his enclosure for a basking spot and his UVB sits diagnally over the middle, but with the extra size of his enclosure, I wanted to make sure there is enough lighting. Nothing major, just simple small lights but wanted to confirm they are safe for use. I'll have to weigh everything out now.

Your cleaner bugs for your flooring, did you purchase them independently, or use earthworms you gather from the back yard? I've seen similar insects used for Dart Frog enclosures with clay backgrounds and flooring, are these similar to the ones you use?

As for the humidity. I have been periodically tracking throughout the last couple weeks. During mistings and for 60 minutes after, his humidity starts at 85 immediately after, but gradually drops to 25 +/- 5. This is with the humidifier within 5 feet of his enclosure. I was hoping to keep the other 2 hours between mistings at +/- 5 of 40%. Should I not worry about his humidity levels? The vet last week for his 6 month checkup confirmed he was already in great shape and parasite free, but I'm always worrying about my little buddy and last thing I want is to be an over protective dad.

V/r

Gavriel

 

[Olimpia]

I'm sure some of the worms came in on the plants I purchased from a nursery but most I ordered online. They are usually sold in cups from any online feeder place and you can get 100 for not very much. I think Smallpetfeeders.com sells clean-up crews too, so you can get an array of them from one place. But yes, all the bugs I have are the ones dart frog keepers use, for the same reasons. They do quite a bit in keeping tanks (Especially high-humidity tanks) clean and healthy.

It's my personal opinion that it's ok if the humidity drops, but like with substrate, everyone may have varying opinions on this. But I think it's normal for humidity levels to fluctuate and as long as you have several periods throughout the day where it spikes, and are getting the cage/plants nice and wet for the chameleon to drink and soak in, I believe this to be more than enough to keep him healthy. My humidity will spike to 80-90% during and following a misting but may drop anywhere from 30-50% otherwise, depending on whether I have the AC on, and my chameleons are healthy and still shed in hours (even at 2+ years old!)

 

[gavriel]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I definately have alot of weighing to do with pros and cons. I'll let you know what direction I take and will follow up with some details to my enclosure build to follow next month.

V/r

Gavriel