Enclosure not draining?

[Alastair&Anna]

Ok so, my boy Randall has a bioactive enclosure. Recently I have noticed puddles in the dirt. It seems swampy now, and it leads me to believe that the drainage layers aren't working? My mistaking seems to be over watering or smth so I decreased the time from 2mjb to 1:30. How can I solve this issue?

 

[Beman]

@MissSkittles @snitz427

 

[Mendez]

What substrate are you using? And what are you using for the drainage layer?

There are two scenarios:
1) You are overwatering the system so the drainage layer filled up and is now spilling into the soil. If this is the case, you need to cut back on watering significantly. The soil can go anaerobic and be a breeding ground for bad bacteria.

2) The soil/substrate you are using does not evenly distribute the water (e.g. via peat moss), so once the water the topsoil, it just puddles up instead of getting distributed. Once the water distributes, any excess water drains into your drainage layer. If this is the case, change your soil to an ABG mix or ABG mix-like substrate. You can even make your own, or buy cheaper substitutes and add some ingredients for better drainage.

Puddling water is not good regardless. If you answer my first two questions, I can better help you out. From the pictures, it looks like you are just using regular soil. Once the soil becomes over-saturated, it almost acts like clay. I would change the soil to a substrate (as ABG mix actually isn't soil).

As for watering/misting the enclosure, you will need to more careful. It can be a delicate balancing act. Since you have a garbage bag holding in the drainage layer and substrate, it becomes much harder to tell how much water the system needs. You can't see the buildup of water the same way that you would in a glass terrarium or a screen enclosure with a clear drainage/substrate holder.

For chameleons, it is tempting to blast them with water, but they really don't need as much water as what is advertised. If you spray the enclosure in the morning, you only need to spray until the leaves get wet and are holding water droplets (if the substrate looks dry, you can mist for a bit longer). Any more than that is just excessive. The substrate should do a good job at keeping up the humidity, so brief watering sessions are all you need. Running the water for longer results in the water going straight to the drainage layer. This is water that can no longer be utilized. Having some water in the drainage layer is perfectly fine, even beneficial for your plants' roots, but you don't want a drainage layer with a lot of water.

My jackson's chameleon sleeps in a spot where he doesn't get hit by the mist. Once the mister stops and he starts his day, he begins to lap up the water off the leaves. He is perfectly happy and healthy. I always check his eyes to make sure they aren't sunken in, and I also check his urates. Watering until the leaves just begin to start dripping water is fine. Because that is all the water they really need.

If you find that the humidity is getting too low, causing you to mist more frequently to get that humidity up, you can always try covering the front of the screen cage (with the exception of the bottom maintenance door) with window insulation shrink film, a clear shower curtain, or marine vinyl. However, if you keep the substrate a nice moist consistency that isn't sopping wet every time you mist, that should be sufficient for a chameleon. They can choose their preferred gradient and will probably opt to sleep closer to the substrate on some branches to get a higher nighttime humidity.

Also looking at your pictures, you should completely block off the sides. You will find that you will need to mist less frequently. You can always try to mist more frequently at short intervals instead of misting less frequently at longer intervals. The longer the mist session, the more likely that you will get water building up in your drainage layer.

You can also listen to this podcast episode with Michael Nash: . It's a great episode on bioactive setups. He doesn't use a drainage layer, but he is also more experienced. I would recommend a drainage layer, especially if you are just learning.

Apologies for the long answer. I definitely need to work on short and concise lol

 

[Mendez]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that you need to add more branches in your cage. You want to have a good amount of horizontal branches going from side to side.

 

[Sonny13]

Do you have clay balls at the bottom? And for instance mixed up the soil with spaghnum moss?

Maybe adding some plants at the bottom that can use the water. If you don’t have a drainage layer and no plants that use up the water, you’ll mostly end up with this situation. Water is just building up.

 

[bruce the cham]

might be over misting

 

[MissSkittles]

Sounds like you’ve already gotten great advice. What is holding your soil layer in the enclosure? Is it just the plastic? When using a waterproof liner, you’ll want to add a way to remove excess water with either suction or a pump. Most add a pvc pipe with a notched end in a corner with it going down to the bottom clay ball/rocky drainage layer and extending up to the top (with a cap) so that any excess can be sucked out. I use fabric root pouches, which I believe will allow water to pass thru if needed (haven’t put it to the test yet). For now the only fix I can think of is to remove some of the drenched soil and let it dry out.

 

[Alastair&Anna]

What substrate are you using? And what are you using for the drainage layer?

There are two scenarios:
1) You are overwatering the system so the drainage layer filled up and is now spilling into the soil. If this is the case, you need to cut back on watering significantly. The soil can go anaerobic and be a breeding ground for bad bacteria.

2) The soil/substrate you are using does not evenly distribute the water (e.g. via peat moss), so once the water the topsoil, it just puddles up instead of getting distributed. Once the water distributes, any excess water drains into your drainage layer. If this is the case, change your soil to an ABG mix or ABG mix-like substrate. You can even make your own, or buy cheaper substitutes and add some ingredients for better drainage.

Puddling water is not good regardless. If you answer my first two questions, I can better help you out. From the pictures, it looks like you are just using regular soil. Once the soil becomes over-saturated, it almost acts like clay. I would change the soil to a substrate (as ABG mix actually isn't soil).

As for watering/misting the enclosure, you will need to more careful. It can be a delicate balancing act. Since you have a garbage bag holding in the drainage layer and substrate, it becomes much harder to tell how much water the system needs. You can't see the buildup of water the same way that you would in a glass terrarium or a screen enclosure with a clear drainage/substrate holder.

For chameleons, it is tempting to blast them with water, but they really don't need as much water as what is advertised. If you spray the enclosure in the morning, you only need to spray until the leaves get wet and are holding water droplets (if the substrate looks dry, you can mist for a bit longer). Any more than that is just excessive. The substrate should do a good job at keeping up the humidity, so brief watering sessions are all you need. Running the water for longer results in the water going straight to the drainage layer. This is water that can no longer be utilized. Having some water in the drainage layer is perfectly fine, even beneficial for your plants' roots, but you don't want a drainage layer with a lot of water.

My jackson's chameleon sleeps in a spot where he doesn't get hit by the mist. Once the mister stops and he starts his day, he begins to lap up the water off the leaves. He is perfectly happy and healthy. I always check his eyes to make sure they aren't sunken in, and I also check his urates. Watering until the leaves just begin to start dripping water is fine. Because that is all the water they really need.

If you find that the humidity is getting too low, causing you to mist more frequently to get that humidity up, you can always try covering the front of the screen cage (with the exception of the bottom maintenance door) with window insulation shrink film, a clear shower curtain, or marine vinyl. However, if you keep the substrate a nice moist consistency that isn't sopping wet every time you mist, that should be sufficient for a chameleon. They can choose their preferred gradient and will probably opt to sleep closer to the substrate on some branches to get a higher nighttime humidity.

Also looking at your pictures, you should completely block off the sides. You will find that you will need to mist less frequently. You can always try to mist more frequently at short intervals instead of misting less frequently at longer intervals. The longer the mist session, the more likely that you will get water building up in your drainage layer.

You can also listen to this podcast episode with Michael Nash: . It's a great episode on bioactive setups. He doesn't use a drainage layer, but he is also more experienced. I would recommend a drainage layer, especially if you are just learning.

Apologies for the long answer. I definitely need to work on short and concise lol

Ok, so, I got Randall and his cage from another person, so I do not know for sure what the layers look like. The substrate looks like eco earth and something else mixed into it. I will decrease the mistings once again and work on soaking up water. I was told there were drainage layers, but now I am not so positive. It is strange that I am experiencing this now, because I have had him for nearly a year now with no trouble.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that you need to add more branches in your cage. You want to have a good amount of horizontal branches going from side to side.

I would, and I have tried. He just gets so freaked out by change I am waiting for a good time to change things around. He has been living in the cage all his life and I dont want to piss him off again lmao.

Do you have clay balls at the bottom? And for instance mixed up the soil with spaghnum moss?

Maybe adding some plants at the bottom that can use the water. If you don’t have a drainage layer and no plants that use up the water, you’ll mostly end up with this situation. Water is just building up.

Not sure about the leca, or the sphagnum moss. There are already a large amount of plants there including 3 umbrella trees and 4 different pothos plants. So sadly I dont think I can fit more. (i would if i could because im a plant addict smh)

Sounds like you’ve already gotten great advice. What is holding your soil layer in the enclosure? Is it just the plastic? When using a waterproof liner, you’ll want to add a way to remove excess water with either suction or a pump. Most add a pvc pipe with a notched end in a corner with it going down to the bottom clay ball/rocky drainage layer and extending up to the top (with a cap) so that any excess can be sucked out. I use fabric root pouches, which I believe will allow water to pass thru if needed (haven’t put it to the test yet). For now the only fix I can think of is to remove some of the drenched soil and let it dry out.

I'm not sure what the layers actually look like. I seriously wish I did. I might try the removal of the soil.


What makes this slightly difficult is that both of my chameleons are hooked up to the mistking, and Alastair's enclosure is doing fine. Will the shorter mistings affect him? Or should everyone be fine with the shorter times? Thank you for everyone's help!!!!

 

[snitz427]

Ok so, my boy Randall has a bioactive enclosure. Recently I have noticed puddles in the dirt. It seems swampy now, and it leads me to believe that the drainage layers aren't working? My mistaking seems to be over watering or smth so I decreased the time from 2mjb to 1:30. How can I solve this issue?

how does the water drain out of the enclosure? The drainage layer is meant to provide a buffer so that water can run off w/o washing away and eroding your substrate. It should still drain out of the bottom into some sort of drainage catchment. Some people have drainage plumbing that drains into a bucket (me), some have washing machine pans that the water drains into, and they then suck it out with a shopvac. Do you have a place for the water to drain, or does it jsut collect and sit in the bottom of the enclosure? If it doesn't have a place to drain into (that you then empty), your soil will have turned to mud and will likely never dry back out to a nice, loose soil. You'll need to replace it , or remove a bunch - till it up and let it dry out flat, before adding it back in. The bottom will turn into hard packed mud - I've been there!


If you do have the water running off to a drainage bucket, then you likely need to amend your soil with some chunky stuff to allow for better drainage. If you have a female, that will eventually dig up the soil, be sure to use very large grade bark and charcoal (that you order from an orchid shop, not what you find at home depot). That's too large to eat, even if they do dig it up. For boys, they are unlikely to unsurface it at all.

Here's what I like to use:

• I use zoomed eco earth as the primary base for my soil. Its ground up coconut fiber and it tends to be a bit more airy than peat. Its also very fine, so if any gets ingested, it should pass right through.
• I add in very chunky grades of horticultural charcoal (purchased from an orchid shop like Kellys Korner or Green Barn Orchids).
• I add very chunk grades of pine bark (also from orchid mix, NOT the home depot mulch...which is very likely to have bad stuff in it like artillery fungus (had that - NOT fun).
• I also use coconut husk CHUNKS (can be found on amazon or orchid places. many use it for snakes).
• I mix all those together to make a slightly chunky soil. Chunky = air pockets. I pour that over top of my drainage layer.
• I add 2" or more on top of that of straight eco earth. This prevents teh chameleons from even seeing the bark, let alone giving it a taste test.
• I also add a layer of leaf litter along the bottom to cover everything.
• Don't compact it. Sprinkle everything on and let it compact over time from watering. I do pack the plants down slightly, just enough to keep them from toppling over.

The biggest issue with most soil mixes in house plants is over watering. Soil mixes either hold too much and the roots rot, or plants are overwatered. Since we water every single day, we need to give the plants the best drainage possible with this chunky mix, to prevent the soil from getting stagnant and stinky, from lack of air flow.

 

[snitz427]

don't use perlite - no matter the grade. perlite dust is harmful to humans and animals, and it is super easy to crush. So even if the chameleon snags a piece that is too big to fit in its mouth, it will crush it into smaller bits as soon as it bites down. They are very attracted to perlite as it looks like small bugs.

 

[Alastair&Anna]

how does the water drain out of the enclosure? The drainage layer is meant to provide a buffer so that water can run off w/o washing away and eroding your substrate. It should still drain out of the bottom into some sort of drainage catchment. Some people have drainage plumbing that drains into a bucket (me), some have washing machine pans that the water drains into, and they then suck it out with a shopvac. Do you have a place for the water to drain, or does it jsut collect and sit in the bottom of the enclosure? If it doesn't have a place to drain into (that you then empty), your soil will have turned to mud and will likely never dry back out to a nice, loose soil. You'll need to replace it , or remove a bunch - till it up and let it dry out flat, before adding it back in. The bottom will turn into hard packed mud - I've been there!


If you do have the water running off to a drainage bucket, then you likely need to amend your soil with some chunky stuff to allow for better drainage. If you have a female, that will eventually dig up the soil, be sure to use very large grade bark and charcoal (that you order from an orchid shop, not what you find at home depot). That's too large to eat, even if they do dig it up. For boys, they are unlikely to unsurface it at all.

Here's what I like to use:

• I use zoomed eco earth as the primary base for my soil. Its ground up coconut fiber and it tends to be a bit more airy than peat. Its also very fine, so if any gets ingested, it should pass right through.
• I add in very chunky grades of horticultural charcoal (purchased from an orchid shop like Kellys Korner or Green Barn Orchids).
• I add very chunk grades of pine bark (also from orchid mix, NOT the home depot mulch...which is very likely to have bad stuff in it like artillery fungus (had that - NOT fun).
• I also use coconut husk CHUNKS (can be found on amazon or orchid places. many use it for snakes).
• I mix all those together to make a slightly chunky soil. Chunky = air pockets. I pour that over top of my drainage layer.
• I add 2" or more on top of that of straight eco earth. This prevents teh chameleons from even seeing the bark, let alone giving it a taste test.
• I also add a layer of leaf litter along the bottom to cover everything.
• Don't compact it. Sprinkle everything on and let it compact over time from watering. I do pack the plants down slightly, just enough to keep them from toppling over.

The biggest issue with most soil mixes in house plants is over watering. Soil mixes either hold too much and the roots rot, or plants are overwatered. Since we water every single day, we need to give the plants the best drainage possible with this chunky mix, to prevent the soil from getting stagnant and stinky, from lack of air flow.

Ok so it isn't draining out to anywhere that I am aware of. Is there a way I could drain it out without redoing the entire enclosure? Like drilling a hole somewhere?

 

[Alastair&Anna]

Also do you think it could wait until late July to completely redo the enclosure. Like would the plants survive? Because that is when I'll have enough money.

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok so it isn't draining out to anywhere that I am aware of. Is there a way I could drain it out without redoing the entire enclosure? Like drilling a hole somewhere?

What is holding the substrate in? Honestly it would be best to undo and redo it all. I know firsthand what a pain in the butt that is (believe me!), but better to do it right.

Also do you think it could wait until late July to completely redo the enclosure. Like would the plants survive? Because that is when I'll have enough money.

If the plants are getting too much water consistently, they will get root rot and die. Even if you can’t afford right now to redo the enclosure bioactive, you could put the plants in pots and wait to do bioactive again.
I very recently did up a brand new bioactive set up for one of my chams. The very last thing I did was put the clean up crew in. As I was dumping the big bin of isopods and springtails in (that I’ve been breeding just for this), I discovered a bunch of Surinam roaches had somehow gotten into the bin and were now in my enclosure. I had to completely remove everything and dump all my substrate. I used up the last of several items I use in my substrate and my furred animals vet bills have ensured I’ll have to wait longer than I wanted to set it up bioactive again. It happens. I now have the plants in pots in the simple enclosure for the time being.

 

[Alastair&Anna]

What is holding the substrate in? Honestly it would be best to undo and redo it all. I know firsthand what a pain in the butt that is (believe me!), but better to do it right.

If the plants are getting too much water consistently, they will get root rot and die. Even if you can’t afford right now to redo the enclosure bioactive, you could put the plants in pots and wait to do bioactive again.
I very recently did up a brand new bioactive set up for one of my chams. The very last thing I did was put the clean up crew in. As I was dumping the big bin of isopods and springtails in (that I’ve been breeding just for this), I discovered a bunch of Surinam roaches had somehow gotten into the bin and were now in my enclosure. I had to completely remove everything and dump all my substrate. I used up the last of several items I use in my substrate and my furred animals vet bills have ensured I’ll have to wait longer than I wanted to set it up bioactive again. It happens. I now have the plants in pots in the simple enclosure for the time being.

The dirt seems to all be in one big garbage bag. This weekend or smth like that I'll see if I can get everything out and just have the plastic on the bottom and redo the bioactive part (or just keep the plants in the enclosure and not do bioactive) thanks sm for the help

Where can I find links to make correct bioactive?

Also what would be the best way to disassemble the enclosure?

 

[Beman]

The dirt seems to all be in one big garbage bag. This weekend or smth like that I'll see if I can get everything out and just have the plastic on the bottom and redo the bioactive part (or just keep the plants in the enclosure and not do bioactive) thanks sm for the help

Where can I find links to make correct bioactive?

Also what would be the best way to disassemble the enclosure?

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-bio-activity.2429/

 

[MissSkittles]

The dirt seems to all be in one big garbage bag. This weekend or smth like that I'll see if I can get everything out and just have the plastic on the bottom and redo the bioactive part (or just keep the plants in the enclosure and not do bioactive) thanks sm for the help

Where can I find links to make correct bioactive?

Also what would be the best way to disassemble the enclosure?

This is the guide that I used and is super helpful. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-bio-activity.2429/ I use root pouches https://www.homedepot.com/p/Root-Po...Pots-with-Handles-Planter-BB900-45H/306677187 on top of a substrate tray (the trays are very short). Some have made wooden planter boxes that are waterproofed and then run the pvc tube to remove excess water from the drainage layer. I think some have even used coroplast or similar materials glued and siliconed together.
it’s a good dirty job to disassemble and I use several big 5 gal buckets along with my little outdoor cart thing. I take it all outside to sift thru and carefully try to save as many of the isopods as I can. I put them in a bin with some of their soil and leaf litter and take care of them (same as my feeders) until needed.

 

[snitz427]

Ok so it isn't draining out to anywhere that I am aware of. Is there a way I could drain it out without redoing the entire enclosure? Like drilling a hole somewhere?

Sorry - catching up and responded before seeing the other posts.

I did the same thing my first go round and ended up with the same issue. I’d see what others are using for drainage. I know some like to use washing machine tubs and then siphon the dirty water out of that. Dragonstrand makes some drainage trays, as well, but the washer tub is probably cheapest and easiest to get,

You’ll def need to change the substrate eventually or your plants will eventually rot. Msskittles had a good suggestion of potting them up for now until you are ready. Also the zoomed coco earth I mentioned is relatively cheap. Amazon usually has it for like $3 a block, and 3 blocks will prob be more than enough.

 

[FloridaChameleonLiving]

@Alastair&Anna Obviously there's ALOT of g advice already given but I'd probably scratch the bioactive and maybe go with like the 2 pot method (floating garden) kind of thing. Now I didn't see what kind of cham you have but I'm assuming veiled or panther ? Worst case scenario you could probably repot something from in the cage and if you had to go to home depot and spend 20$ on a nice big plant of some sort (schefflera etc) then it would be worth it. Maybe find some extra branches outside or bendy vines and call it a day for the time being ?

 

[Alastair&Anna]

@Alastair&Anna Obviously there's ALOT of g advice already given but I'd probably scratch the bioactive and maybe go with like the 2 pot method (floating garden) kind of thing. Now I didn't see what kind of cham you have but I'm assuming veiled or panther ? Worst case scenario you could probably repot something from in the cage and if you had to go to home depot and spend 20$ on a nice big plant of some sort (schefflera etc) then it would be worth it. Maybe find some extra branches outside or bendy vines and call it a day for the time being ?

I will probably end up doing this

 

[Alastair&Anna]

I decided to take out all the crap today, since I realized that I'm not free over the weekend due to work. It took me 3 and a half hours to redo it completely. I spent an hour disassembling the cage, the dirt smelled like crap and wasn't even dirt, it was mud. I'm glad I decided to do it today because I managed to save plants that were beginning to have root rot. The previous owner did add leca but it obviously did not work lol. Once I got everything out I moved Randers inside on a fake tree because it was becoming chilly. Then I moved the cage inside and assembled it. This took awhile lol. Finally Randers got to go back in his cage for nappy time.