dull hybrids?

[ibdragons]

I have a question has anyone heard of a hybrid offspring coming out dull,like not good looking,I know some come out beautiful but what about female crosses ?. That's why im against crossing locales. Then I wonder if there is racism among chams? Like a baby hybrid cham getting mocked by pure babies bcuz his dad is an ambilobe n his mom an ambanja. I'm just worried that when these chams are crossed there is a lot of babies,some Will look beautiful and some won't .then no one wants to buy the ugly ducklings and the owner might lie. Then I come along wanting to breed my nosey be he sells me this "pure" female nosey be and its really a hybrid and there u have it a tainted line. I in turn sell them as pure and then my reputation is tainted , if Panthers had a few offspring it might be okay to cross locales but these guys have a lot of babies. This is my personal opinion of why I'm against crosses in respect to everyone else's opinion on crossing locals.

 

[ibdragons]

For the record I mean no disrespect to cham forum members men and women. If there is honesty then there wouldn't be an issue.twice someone tried to pull a fast one on me selling me chams.i love crosses how they look Olympia has a beautiful one ,I'm just concerned for the ones that don't sell. Again I mean no disrespect , David

 

[Olimpia]

I think this is an interesting topic of discussion. And thanks for the compliment on my guy.

I would love to have this conversation (the title one at least) in a few months when my clutch starts to hatch. In theory, I want to keep them at least 4 months, and really document how they turn out. I would be more than happy to show the difference between clutch mates on a thread like this, and then have a discussion about whether people think some are coming out duller than others. I still haven't seen an ugly or dull chameleon, that I remember, but it could happen. Obviously, in any clutch you're going to have the gems that are going to be the hold-backs or pick of the litter, and then others that aren't AS fantastic but still varying degrees of beautiful. But in something like my clutch, where you have 4 locales in different percentages, there will probably be a big difference between them - with some being more impressive than others.

I would like to hear from others to see if they've observed something like this in any clutch, where some came out dull. Because I haven't seen an ugly panther yet, but maybe it's just because no one shows them off for that reason.

 

[lslcronk]

I find this interesting just as a general discussion. I find it interesting ppl are so against mixing chams but will pay a grand to buy a "designer" dog which is in reality just a MUTT (sorry if anyone that reads this has a Labradoodle or Puggle and gets upset but that is something that really IRKS me). Just because they gave it a cute name (think "Tom-Kat", "Brangelina", "Bennifer" etc...) does not make it any less of a mutt or less annoying.

So you say you dislike crosses because you are afraid of being duped? If you are serious about breeding, would you not make sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder?? I know you would not be going to Craigslist or Kingsnake to buy the cheapest chams you could find to save a few bucks...that is if you are really serious about breeding quality PURE animals.

Now, there is also serious speculation about the "purity" of the WC chams as well. What are your thoughts on that?? One of the locales that ppl are spending ridiculous amounts of money on may not be pure straight off the island they come from. That also lends question to the purity of all of the chams coming off any of the islands or out of any of the towns.

 

[JonRich]

So you say you dislike crosses because you are afraid of being duped? If you are serious about breeding, would you not make sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder?? I know you would not be going to Craigslist or Kingsnake to buy the cheapest chams you could find to save a few bucks...that is if you are really serious about breeding quality PURE animals.
.

^^ Thisssss!!!!!!!

 

[JonRich]

Now, there is also serious speculation about the "purity" of the WC chams as well. What are your thoughts on that?? One of the locales that ppl are spending ridiculous amounts of money on may not be pure straight off the island they come from. That also lends question to the purity of all of the chams coming off any of the islands or out of any of the towns.

and Thisssssss^^^^^^

 

[lslcronk]

Thanks Jon! lol

I also just had another thought...why are you limiting your query to just crosses? If a cross could be "dull" I would think there equal chance for a "pure" to be dull...I think we should open the topic to "Any Dull Panthers".

I still agree with Olimpia, I personally don't think they exist lol but I will keep an open mind!

 

[JonRich]

Thanks Jon! lol

I also just had another thought...why are you limiting your query to just crosses? If a cross could be "dull" I would think there equal chance for a "pure" to be dull...I think we should open the topic to "Any Dull Panthers".

I still agree with Olimpia, I personally don't think they exist lol but I will keep an open mind!

ooooh , on a roll... Thisss too ^^^^

Captin of your debate team much?

 

[ibdragons]

U got a point about purity,a reputable dealer can buy off the island and the guy he got it from made a mistake on a certain female .
On the point on the dogs yes they cross dogs to get a certain breed but then they stick to that hybrid for decades put a name on it and in a way it becomes a certain breed.
A while back someone stated it would be okay to cross as long as u document it and where ever u sell them they are labeled as hybrid in return that person when he or she sells it it is labeled ad a hybrid . Like what Olimpia is doing whith her clutch.when I first joined cf she was the first one to help me and give me advice on my cham issues. She has always labeled her cham as hybrid if she distributes any offspring she labels them as hybrid that is reputable person .if I liked hybrid I would definitely get one from her cuz of how I view her as an honest person n if she says its a certain locale mixed with a certain locale then that's what it is.

 

[lumbasammler]

In fact most locals don´t seem to be "pure" to begin with. I just saw a video of a team that has done chameleon-tours on madagascar for 16years and they made this video to show, how the landscape between ambilobe and sirama looks like. I gotta say it´s like one big bush and both "locals" are in there so it´s mixed up either way. Don´t know how it is with other locals, but i guess its pretty much the same.

 

[JonRich]

a reputable dealer can buy off the island and the guy he got it from made a mistake on a certain female .
.

^^^ Thisss discredits That vvvvvvvvv

A while back someone stated it would be okay to cross as long as u document it and where ever u sell them they are labeled as hybrid in return that person when he or she sells it it is labeled ad a hybrid . Like what Olimpia is doing whith her clutch.when I first joined cf she was the first one to help me and give me advice on my cham issues. She has always labeled her cham as hybrid if she distributes any offspring she labels them as hybrid that is reputable person .if I liked hybrid I would definitely get one from her cuz of how I view her as an honest person n if she says its a certain locale mixed with a certain locale then that's what it is.

A completely HONEST and REPUTABLE breeder if purchased a WC as a pure but unknown to them or the dealer will hold that Locale true to where it was caught (especially with females).. So does this mean we should treat ALL Locals as "crossed" or " possibly crossed"..??!?

Why would/should we waste time and energy with some kind of documented system if we are not sure of whats being documented in the first place.?!?

 

[lslcronk]

^^^ Thisss discredits That vvvvvvvvv


A completely HONEST and REPUTABLE breeder if purchased a WC as a pure but unknown to them or the dealer will hold that Locale true to where it was caught (especially with females).. So does this mean we should treat ALL Locals as "crossed" or " possibly crossed"..??!?

Why would/should we waste time and energy with some kind of documented system if we are not sure of whats being documented in the first place.?!?

Its my turn to give you love...your point is what I was going to say...there is a reason REPUTABLE breeders are REPUTABLE. Oh and no debate team here, I am just really passionate about some things...don't get me started on the whole pit bull debate!

I think it odd the OP says "if I liked hybrids I would get one from Olimpia" what is it you dont like about hybrids? It obviously is not just an issue with breeding. My Claude, basically looks like half the BB Ambilobes I see. Which is why for my second cham I went with a Sambava to get something different from Claude. He looks nothing like an Ambanja. The hybrids dont LOOK that different.

 

[lslcronk]

U got a point about purity,a reputable dealer can buy off the island and the guy he got it from made a mistake on a certain female .
On the point on the dogs yes they cross dogs to get a certain breed but then they stick to that hybrid for decades put a name on it and in a way it becomes a certain breed.
A while back someone stated it would be okay to cross as long as u document it and where ever u sell them they are labeled as hybrid in return that person when he or she sells it it is labeled ad a hybrid . Like what Olimpia is doing whith her clutch.when I first joined cf she was the first one to help me and give me advice on my cham issues. She has always labeled her cham as hybrid if she distributes any offspring she labels them as hybrid that is reputable person .if I liked hybrid I would definitely get one from her cuz of how I view her as an honest person n if she says its a certain locale mixed with a certain locale then that's what it is.

A mixed breed dog is always a mix breed. You will never be able to cross a Labradoodle with a Labradoodle and consistantly get a Labradoodle. Even the man that created the Labradoodle is ashamed of himself for doing it. The only dog breeds that are PURE dog breeds are the ones acknowledged by the AKC/UKC. You will never see a Puggle at Westminster.
This is why your concern about "dull" panthers is even valid (although I see we have no picture evidence that they exist as yet) when you cross things there is always variation. That is why if you breed 2 Labradoodles some will look like poodles, some like labs and some may have a mix of both traits...punnet squares in genetics, they are awesome!
This also leads to some questions regarding recent issues with a clutch of a certain line of panthers from the "local that shall not be spoken"...it is interesting that there was such great variation in clutch mates from a line that is supposedly PURE. Makes on wonder, again, of what mixing may be happening naturally on the islands. To be honest, since the introduction of human travel from one island to another, one town to another, NO ONE can be 100% certain that no Be's ended up on Faly or any other combination...there is a reason for those "odd-ball" PURES.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I have a question has anyone heard of a hybrid offspring coming out dull,like not good looking,I know some come out beautiful but what about female crosses ?.

I've raised quite a few "pure" Nosy be, "pure" Ambilobe, and AmbixNosy mixes. Not one ugly duckling, IMHO. Some of the mixed local males take longer to colour up though. Or rather I guess its just that they seem to change quite a lot more over time, or maybe its because the changes are uncertain, unknown, unexpected. Females are lovely, no matter their heritage.

If you're just wanting to debate the merits of "crosses" vs "pure", I'm not really interested in hearing all that again. Its been discussed endlessly (and pointlessly) so many times already. Sufficient to say there is room for both, no danger to the purists from the crosses unless they're too cheap to buy reputably. And frankly anything captive bred (where people are doing the selection for looks, not nature for natures sake) is quickly different from the real pure animals in the wild.