Dripper drip rate and other questions

TotalNoob

New Member
Still no chameleon. Still getting together all the info that I need/want for the enclosure. I've got the enclosure and lights figured. I'm currently building a stand and hood. UVB bulb will be in shortly. MistKing should be here on Friday.

Currently I'm chewing on the dripper. I have a nice 6 stage RO filter that I use for drinking water to my home. Where the Enclosure is going to be located, it would be a relatively simple thing to T off of the feed line and run a branch over to the chameleons enclosure. I've read a few comments in regards to dripper timing. I'd like to reduce the amount of excess water that will end up in the drain (I'm still chewing on that bit).

I'm assuming I'd like to have the dripper run for at least several hours during the day. I figure I can accomplish this through a small needle valve and a solenoid set to a timer.

I guess my main questions are these:

1. Is there any sort of recommended drip rate to optimize his ability to stay hydrated, but reduce waste water?

2. Does anyway have a recommendation on solenoids for this purpose? One with an included adapter would be preferable for me.


Any insights would be helpful!

Thanks,

Josh
 

CNorton

Avid Member

In my experience, there will always be waste water when dripping. Drip rate is probably not worth analyzing as a chameleon will drink from all sorts of rates including a solid stream of water. But if you beg a wild guess out of me, 90 drops per minute is probably ideal.
 

TotalNoob

New Member
That video is actually Super helpful. We've never had a chameleon before, so to see how they do that is at least a good way to get started.
 

ZEROPILOT

Avid Member

In my experience, there will always be waste water when dripping. Drip rate is probably not worth analyzing as a chameleon will drink from all sorts of rates including a solid stream of water. But if you beg a wild guess out of me, 90 drops per minute is probably ideal.
I was going to say one drip per second. But anyone that uses a dripper already knows that for some reason the same dripper with the same settings will drip at different rates each time it is used.
Although my drippers drip for almost three hours a day. It's usually right when it begins, my chams rush over to drink.
I also use a MISTKING. But I've never seen my chams lick water off of anything . However, that certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Their behavior is often secretive.
 

TotalNoob

New Member
Does everyone seem to pretty much just set their hoses on the screen and let it drop down through? I gotta admit that makes my OCD flare up something fierce! I would prefer to see that hose drop into the enclosure with a nice graceful curve extending in towards the center of the enclosure.

Hey Zero, do you turn your water on and off with a timer, or do you do it manually..........
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
https://www.amazon.com/Beduan-Solenoid-Normally-Reverse-Osmosis/dp/B07NWCQJK9/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=12v+water+solenoid+1/4&qid=1578539417&sr=8-3

Your going to want 3 of those.

Its not going to be wired, and you will have a hard time finding one that is tbh. Its easy though, just throw on the spades on to the outlet, and slide them on. Little electrical tape, easy peasy.

Electrical Adapter, easy. https://www.amazon.com/Signcomplex-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

If you have some wires you can scavenge from something.

If not, https://www.amazon.com/TMEZON-Power-Adapter-Supply-2-1mm/dp/B00Q2E5IXW/ref=sxin_0_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-MTJ2IHBvd2VyIGFkYXB0ZXI=-ac_d_rm&cv_ct_cx=12v+power+adapter&keywords=12v+power+adapter&pd_rd_i=B00Q2E5IXW&pd_rd_r=f4945e47-f1e0-4960-aa5a-1ef1dd98a86d&pd_rd_w=0y7hu&pd_rd_wg=sUErg&pf_rd_p=e2f20af2-9651-42af-9a45-89425d5bae34&pf_rd_r=XFVW75X1MYSDQGHCNAC4&psc=1&qid=1578539753

You may also have some Power Adapters from old tech around, Routers commonly use 12v but make sure first! You need a 12v and 1amp or more (they use about 400mas each, but you need a 1 amp for the 2 of)

Now your wondering why 3?

1 goes to your dripper, and you run the timer, as needed. As you said, needle valving it it will be a drip nothing more, if the solenoid fails it will not end the world.

1 goes before your Mistking pump, this will stop the flow to the pump, until its time to turn on, shares a timer with the MK timer. The second, same deal, put this one, after the MK pump or before doesn't matter.

This is a fail safe, to prevent any accidents. If the Solenoid fails, and they do quite often, when you need it to not most likely. The likely hood of the other failing is very very low. The drip its not a big deal, whats an extra half gallon over a day or 2, however your RO pumping out 75 or more gallons in a day, will likely be an issue. Especially when you take that weekend trip and come home to 300+ gallons of water on your floor. I would test each one, periodically and ordering 4 to have a backup for when does fail is likely a good idea.


I know you never said you would hook your MK, to RO direct. But you should, its the best route. An auto top of Reservoir carry's the same risks, and a reservoir at all introduces Algae/Bacteria/Debris concern. It took me awhile to make the switch, as I had to run the line through 2 rooms, though my kitchen cabinets, under the carpet, ect. When my 2 year began to see the reservoir as a place to put toys and peanut butter, it was time. Hooking it direct RO, gives good priming pressure before the pump, and a perfect water storage tank, closing the system and never needing to be filled. Marty himself (owner of Mistking) said it was "The Perfect system, The Dream really) when I was researching the prospect.

He even starting selling Solenoids for the MK, it wires right in, https://www.joshsfrogs.com/mistking-solenoid-shut-off-valve-fits-1-4-tubing.html they are pretty pricey though. BTW same with the "Zipdrip" its just a Normally Open Solenoid that shuts when its time to pump, not worth 25 dollars, AT ALL, litteraly exact same ones as I linked, except the 24v model (the selector on Amazon)
 
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TotalNoob

New Member
Actually, having the mistking set to the household water never crossed my mind for all the reasons you just mentioned. I figured I'd keep two five gallon buckets in the stand I'm building. One to supply the mister and one to drain into.

That actually has me wondering how much pressure the pump on those misters create. My household pressure is usually just about 65 psi. If you get a good mist at say 50 psi, hooking up the pump would be completely unnecessary.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Actually, having the mistking set to the household water never crossed my mind for all the reasons you just mentioned. I figured I'd keep two five gallon buckets in the stand I'm building. One to supply the mister and one to drain into.

That actually has me wondering how much pressure the pump on those misters create. My household pressure is usually just about 65 psi. If you get a good mist at say 50 psi, hooking up the pump would be completely unnecessary.
Its not your household pressure that would feed in what I suggested, its the Bladder Tank, which will push water at 30-40psi the RO filters, GREATLY reduce the pressure and flow of your water, thats what the tank is for.

However to answer your question, its around 60ish PSI from the pump. the direct RO feed, MIGHT be adequate, for 1 or 2 nozzles, MAYBE. The amount of water sent through will be greatly reduced, and the mist may not be as fine. All you can do is try it. Edit: just tried it, doesn't work, its a semi squirting drip, the pressure on the MK is confusingly written, but its somewhere between 60-120.

Running your RO to the Mister directly, is the best way TBH. You just have to be safe about it. Thats why the solenoid ( a flat our requirement to do this) and a backup also in line, for safety. Algae and Bacteria, LOVE RO WATER. RO water is pure, or pretty close to, water doesnt want to be pure. It wants minerals, it wants bacterias, ect. Its why in my other hobby we use fluids mixed with RO for PC water cooling, to keep it from stripping metal from the blocks and radiators.
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
To add to above, what you maybe COULD do. I am aiming to try this myself. Is make a Rain System directly RO fed no pump needed. @dshuld has a system like this, and he is using a low pressure diaphragm pump from amazon (its like a 30psi booster, or maybe 40) and needle valves to control the flow. However a direct RO feed I have been chewing on trying, as it might be just the right amount.

So basically build a square box, from the 1/4 tube, and then add in crosses, as many as you want. then poke holes all through it with a needle, to make like a soaker hose. This will give you rain drops instead of mist, which is fine AFAIK, and the way nature intended. Misters are good at raising humidity more than providing water.

My plan, when I get around to it. Is to still do my morning mist, before lights on. This will raise the humidity, and give dew for the leaves. Then at lights off, I will mist once more, again raise humidity nothing more. Both of these times, the misters shouldn't bother the cham much anyway.

Then for my afternoon mist/shower, using the "Rain System" with maybe 1 nozzle, or 2 to add to the effect of rain (my viv is huge, and uses 6 atm will be 8 soon) I feel the cham would be more accepting of this "Rain" then being blasted with mist.

A mockup of what I had planned.
 

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TotalNoob

New Member
Have you ever tried a mister nozzle at standard household pressure? I've had garden type mister hooked up on my patio and they worked well.

I'd bet that just running household water (mine is softened) through a 5 or ten micron carbon block filter would be more than adequate for misting.

I dont think id ever trust the tiny electronic solenoids hooked up to a constant water supply though. Especially without a true drain hooked into the household plumbing.

I bet a zone valve for hydronic heating systems would be plenty reliable though. Wouldn't be a big deal to hook one into an electronic timer for multiple spray periods either.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywe...8ihmSjps-d3qJaUSxlwE8-oMspQTOTTRoCY6oQAvD_BwE
 

TotalNoob

New Member
Have you ever tried a mister nozzle at standard household pressure? I've had garden type mister hooked up on my patio and they worked well.

I'd bet that just running household water (mine is softened) through a 5 or ten micron carbon block filter would be more than adequate for misting.

I dont think id ever trust the tiny electronic solenoids hooked up to a constant water supply though. Especially without a true drain hooked into the household plumbing.

I bet a zone valve for hydronic heating systems would be plenty reliable though. Wouldn't be a big deal to hook one into an electronic timer for multiple spray periods either.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywe...8ihmSjps-d3qJaUSxlwE8-oMspQTOTTRoCY6oQAvD_BwE

On second thought the zone valve wouldn't do it.....I don't think it could handle the pressure drop after its closed (rated at 20 PSI)

But a motorized ball valve would be perfect. These come in 1" to 1/4" sizes and are mechanically normally closed. Price point is excellent too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXPZHVB/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A20QEF2LEKCK8G&psc=1
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
On second thought the zone valve wouldn't do it.....I don't think it could handle the pressure drop after its closed (rated at 20 PSI)

But a motorized ball valve would be perfect. These come in 1" to 1/4" sizes and are mechanically normally closed. Price point is excellent too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXPZHVB/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A20QEF2LEKCK8G&psc=1
Hmm I like that valve. That seems more reliable, but still not something I would 100% trust.

I do have a slight with it however, it takes up to 5 secs to engage, and has a failure risk still. 5 secs without water for the pumps, should be okay, but 5 secs every single time, might cause long-term damage over time. It is a consideration.

At the very least, that 5 secs will cause a 10-15 sec mist delay. When you run the pump dry for a second, forgot to fill your resovoir, and then fill it spits. That is with an open resovoir, however that brings up another point, your running the pump not dry with airflow, but dry with a block behind the line. This will amass pressure buildup, behind the pump before the valve.

Not saying it won't work, just that there may be some issues with that.

The best way to use one of those, would be a second bladder tank, between the RO and the Pump. The valve between the RO and the Tank. Like an auto filling resovoir, while maintaining the closed system. Not sure how well that would autofill however.

The solenoid works for me, as I have multiple cages to mist, of which they do not need the same misting times, so I have multiple solenoids in place anyway.


As to the water to CF to Misters. You are again, massively reducing the pressure to the Nozzle. Filters lower flow and pressure, in there function, that's why your RO has the storage tank.

Hooking a mister to a garden hose, is a different situation. As that water is free flowing, full pressure and crazzy high flow rate. The misters that attach to hoses also require drastically less pressure, they do not expel the "Fog" like mist of the Tefen 07-80-f, which is what our mistaking systems use and DIYers should. They have the lowest micron of water avaible of any nozzle, that's why we use them, and that's why they need serious pressure.

You also have to remember the scope of a charcoal filter isnt that wonderful. Its better than just using straight tap, however fluorides, Calcuim, and other minerals will still make there way through that.
 

ZEROPILOT

Avid Member
Does everyone seem to pretty much just set their hoses on the screen and let it drop down through? I gotta admit that makes my OCD flare up something fierce! I would prefer to see that hose drop into the enclosure with a nice graceful curve extending in towards the center of the enclosure.

Hey Zero, do you turn your water on and off with a timer, or do you do it manually..........
My MISTKING has it's own timer.
But my drippers get filled every morning shortly after the lights come on. I fill them manually each day and they drip for around 3 hours, give or take. The hoses lay on top of the screen and the water droplets fall into my Shefflera.
The lights are also all on timers.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
On second thought the zone valve wouldn't do it.....I don't think it could handle the pressure drop after its closed (rated at 20 PSI)

But a motorized ball valve would be perfect. These come in 1" to 1/4" sizes and are mechanically normally closed. Price point is excellent too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXPZHVB/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A20QEF2LEKCK8G&psc=1
So your mention of better reliability has had me on a quest all day. To gather info, and make one of these guys work. I just dont see a way, either you have it before the pump or after, either way that 5 secs is not acceptable for a Diaphragm pump. I even seen a guide on manufacturing systems that stated flat out, these are not compatible with diaphragms, and no matter what you do they will cause damage.

The issue lies with its slow opening and closing. The time its partial opened, will cause damage to the pump.

The only possible way to make this work, would be to use a seconds timer and timer the valve before the pump. However, now were are adding different controllers, more failure points, and the fact that water will spit before the pump is enabled.

The best true fail safe I can see, is to make sure the Bladder Tank, is filled a certain rate only. Like say, the tank has a Motorized Ball Valve, that only allows the RO to fill the tank, at night for a set period of time. This way, no matter what happens, at worse it will only dump the size of the tank. This would also help curb waste water, as a full RO tank will waste more to top off, then an empty tank wastes to fill.

I'm still thinking Redundancy is the best option. In not just the Solenoids, but Also redundant Timers.

My initial plan for my load out was something like this.
Mist System Plans.png


However I think now I will run the Misting Pump, and First Solenoid off a different timer. Might need 2 different timers actually, if I decide to do the "Rain" System.
 
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dshuld

Chameleon Enthusiast
To add to above, what you maybe COULD do. I am aiming to try this myself. Is make a Rain System directly RO fed no pump needed. @dshuld has a system like this, and he is using a low pressure diaphragm pump from amazon (its like a 30psi booster, or maybe 40) and needle valves to control the flow. However a direct RO feed I have been chewing on trying, as it might be just the right amount.

So basically build a square box, from the 1/4 tube, and then add in crosses, as many as you want. then poke holes all through it with a needle, to make like a soaker hose. This will give you rain drops instead of mist, which is fine AFAIK, and the way nature intended. Misters are good at raising humidity more than providing water.

My plan, when I get around to it. Is to still do my morning mist, before lights on. This will raise the humidity, and give dew for the leaves. Then at lights off, I will mist once more, again raise humidity nothing more. Both of these times, the misters shouldn't bother the cham much anyway.

Then for my afternoon mist/shower, using the "Rain System" with maybe 1 nozzle, or 2 to add to the effect of rain (my viv is huge, and uses 6 atm will be 8 soon) I feel the cham would be more accepting of this "Rain" then being blasted with mist.

A mockup of what I had planned.
It's actually a high pressure high flow pump that is running both mister nozzles and the 3 row rain system. The rain side is controlled via ball valve (turn off or on that side of things for servicing) and the swagelok metering valve for flow control.
 
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