Drainage issue.

[BenjiTheCham]

Hello,
So I am planning on getting my first veiled chameleon within a couple of weeks. I have been researching and slowly gathering my supplies over the last few months. I have an exo Terra large tall glass terrarium, as recommended by my local reptile store because I live in Minnesota and it is always super dry in my house because of constant AC and heat.
I recently set up my mistking system and ran it for a day and noticed water pooling up at the bottom. I would really like to avoid drilling holes in the bottom as it is glass and it would most likely require a lot of extra work and money.
I was wondering if a substrate could help this at all. I know that it can cause impaction and is not recommended for beginners, but I am willing to try. I was only planning on using paper towels, but I don’t have any in yet.
Thanks in advance!

 

[kinyonga]

Even if you use a substrate it might end up too wet since you're using a misting system.

 

[BenjiTheCham]

Even if you use a substrate it might end up too wet since you're using a misting system.

Good to know, I was just wondering if that could help anything, I still have no idea what to do about the drainage though

 

[kinyonga]

I'm hoping others will chime in about a solution other than drilling holes.

 

[skoram]

A bio-active setup will definitely help as you will have plants soaking up a lot of excess moisture. Keep in mind bio-active does not mean just adding substrate. Substrate without plants will just lead to a pile of mud at the bottom of your enclosure instead of a pool of water. Substrate and plants without a drainage layer will lead to dead plants from root rot. Substrate, plants and a drainage layer without cleanup crew (isopods and springtails) will lead to a foul mess. So you really need all 4: drainage layer, substrate, plants and cleanup crew. For more information about bio-active enclosures I recommend doing a search of posts made by @GoodKarma19

Can you share your misting schedule? You could also be misting too much (glass enclosures don't require as much misting as screen cages) but you will always accumulate water in a bare bottom regardless of how little you mist.

 

[BenjiTheCham]

A bio-active setup will definitely help as you will have plants soaking up a lot of excess moisture. Keep in mind bio-active does not mean just adding substrate. Substrate without plants will just lead to a pile of mud at the bottom of your enclosure instead of a pool of water. Substrate and plants without a drainage layer will lead to dead plants from root rot. Substrate, plants and a drainage layer without cleanup crew (isopods and springtails) will lead to a foul mess. So you really need all 4: drainage layer, substrate, plants and cleanup crew. For more information about bio-active enclosures I recommend doing a search of posts made by @GoodKarma19

Can you share your misting schedule? You could also be misting too much (glass enclosures don't require as much misting as screen cages) but you will always accumulate water in a bare bottom regardless of how little you mist.

thanks for telling me this. I will definitely look at that profile that you were talking about.

As for my misting schedule, I haven’t quite figured it out yet. I don’t have my cham yet. I had bought one of the Exo terra hydrometers without reading the reviews. After reading them I realized that it is not accurate at all, so I ordered one Thatiana more accurate and it will be here soon. I was planning on having it mist twice a day for three minutes.
Thanks

 

[Tony_S]

Here goes my Exo Terra Bio build, I hope it gives you some ideas. There are many of us using a siphon to pump extra water out of the clay balls.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/my-bioactive-build.170830/

 

[BenjiTheCham]

Here goes my Exo Terra Bio build, I hope it gives you some ideas. There are many of us using a siphon to pump extra water out of the clay balls.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/my-bioactive-build.170830/

Thanks! I have started a lot of research and this will help a lot!
That’s also good to know that a lot of people use a siphon

 

[BenjiTheCham]

Thanks! I have started a lot of research and this will help a lot!
That’s also good to know that a lot of people use a siphon

Another question. With Bioactive substrate, is it likely for a chameleon to eat the substrate and become impacted? Is there anyone to prevent this or is there any substrate where this wont happen?

 

[Carlton]

Another question. With Bioactive substrate, is it likely for a chameleon to eat the substrate and become impacted? Is there anyone to prevent this or is there any substrate where this wont happen?

If the substrate surface layer contains larger pieces (chips, bark, shredded cocoa, etc) it is possible. Not that the cham will be intentionally EATING the material (some chams will sample and chew on anything) but that they can get pieces stuck to their tongues when shooting at something else and end up swallowing it. Some people lay a piece of window screen on top. That also helps prevent crickets and superworms burrowing down into it.

 

[BenjiTheCham]

If the substrate surface layer contains larger pieces (chips, bark, shredded cocoa, etc) it is possible. Not that the cham will be intentionally EATING the material (some chams will sample and chew on anything) but that they can get pieces stuck to their tongues when shooting at something else and end up swallowing it. Some people lay a piece of window screen on top. That also helps prevent crickets and superworms burrowing down into it.

Thank you, I will definitely consider doing that

 

[Dbash44]

Thank you, I will definitely consider doing that

You could always get some pvc (big enough for some tubing to fit in). Cut/drill a small hole on the side of the pvc that will be the bottom. Install that vertically in the enclosure before putting any substrate in and use a pvc cap (that correlates with the size pvc you chose) so no feeders fall inside. Whenever too much water gets in the bottom, pull off the cap from the pvc, stick in some aquarium tubing and siphon it out.

 

[skoram]

oh my god, I just typed out a super long post giving a ton of tips from my own bio-active enclosures, went to use the bathroom, came back and Google Chrome had shut down ...

15 minutes of typing down the tubes ...

 

[skoram]

Here is what I tried typing before it got deleted:

First, regarding impaction from eating substrate - reported instances of this occurring are very rare. I wouldn't worry too much about it. There was some discussion about this during one of the Chameleon Breeder Podcasts and they stated, even if your chameleon accidentally ingests some substrate, the chances of it causing impaction are quite low. You can reduce the risk by making sure there are no pieces of bark or large chunks of sphagnum moss on the surface. If you decide to go bio-active, your substrate should be covered with a good blanket of leaf litter anyway, so it renders a lot these issues moot.

Regarding removal of water which may accumulate in your drainage layer over time, you have basically 2 options: 1). drill a hole in your glass or 2) insert a PVC pipe to your drainage layer which you can use to periodically siphon water. There is a detailed post in this thread by @GoodKarma19 which outlines the process in detail. Whether or not you will need to siphon water out occasionally depends on your misting schedule, number of misting nozzles and your enclosure dimensions, specifically the length and width. If it is "skinny" and tall, obviously water will rise more quickly. I have both a 24x18x36 and 36x18x36 glass enclosures and the 24x18 (LxW) occasionally needs to have water removed. I have not yet had more than a few millimeters of water accumulate at the bottom of my 36x18. This is because it takes more water for the level to rise and because I have a higher volume of substrate and also more plants (due to larger area for plants) in the 36x18.

Regarding your misting schedule - 3 minutes twice per day should be fine. I mist 3 times per day but the total duration is shorter (5 minutes). 2 minutes in the morning, 2 minutes just before lights out, and 1 minute midday. Keep in mind, even if your total duration was shorter, the longer the duration of a single misting session, the greater the chance more water will seep to the bottom.

Regarding bio-active setup, there is a good blog post by @cyberlocc which contains all the information you need. You can find it here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-bio-activity.2429/

Here are some additional thoughts I have about the different layers:

• Drainage layer: height can vary but I find somewhere between 1 and 2 inches to be more than sufficient. Many people use hydroton clay balls for media but other, non-toxic materials work just as well e.g. small rocks, lava rocks, filter sponge mat, egg crate, etc. You don't want anything too fine (like sand) which will reduce the water capacity.
  
  
• Separation layer: Keeps substrate from falling into the drainage layer. Anything non-toxic which allows water to pass through easily and blocks substrate will work fine. Most people use fine mesh. I use thin filter mat because it is more effective at containing the substrate.
  
  
• Filtration layer: not necessary but useful because active charcoal acts as a magnet for waste compounds and other things that could foul the water in your drainage layer. These waste compounds (like nitrates, nitrites, ammonia) are good for plants so it can be helpful to keep them in the substrate. In addition to putting down a thin layer of active charcoal on top of my separate layer, I also mix a good amount into my substrate for the reasons stated earlier and because springtails love it.
  
  
• Substrate layer: you can refer to @cyberlocc 's post for details on the substrate composition. As stated above, I also recommend mixing in a good amount of active charcoal.
  
  
• Leaf litter: many people leave this out in their bio-active setups but it is of vital importance as it serves as a primary shelter and food source for your cleanup crew.
  
  
• Cleanup crew: Cleanup crew consists of springtails and isopods. These are, by definition, what make bio-active, bio-active. Without a cleanup crew, you just have a planted enclosure, not a bio-active one. If you live in the states, congratulations. There are many places from which you can order springtails and isopods - Josh's Frogs is one of the more popular and reliable sources: https://www.joshsfrogs.com/bioactive.html
  
  I personally recommend the dwarf white isopods as they reproduce quickly, are inexpensive and are ideally suited for the warm, humid conditions of a chameleon enclosure. If you are partial to another species, they should work just fine also (with exception to some species that prefer dryer conditions). Though they are not frequently mentioned in bio-active discussions, I also strongly recommend adding red wriggler earthworms. Their function is similar to isopods though they provide additional benefits to your substrate (cleaning, aeration, fertilization through worm castings, etc.).

Phew!

 

[BenjiTheCham]

You could always get some pvc (big enough for some tubing to fit in). Cut/drill a small hole on the side of the pvc that will be the bottom. Install that vertically in the enclosure before putting any substrate in and use a pvc cap (that correlates with the size pvc you chose) so no feeders fall inside. Whenever too much water gets in the bottom, pull off the cap from the pvc, stick in some aquarium tubing and siphon it out.

I was just reading a little about that and that is definitely what I’m going to do. Thanks!

 

[BenjiTheCham]

Here is what I tried typing before it got deleted:

First, regarding impaction from eating substrate - reported instances of this occurring are very rare. I wouldn't worry too much about it. There was some discussion about this during one of the Chameleon Breeder Podcasts and they stated, even if your chameleon accidentally ingests some substrate, the chances of it causing impaction are quite low. You can reduce the risk by making sure there are no pieces of bark or large chunks of sphagnum moss on the surface. If you decide to go bio-active, your substrate should be covered with a good blanket of leaf litter anyway, so it renders a lot these issues moot.

Regarding removal of water which may accumulate in your drainage layer over time, you have basically 2 options: 1). drill a hole in your glass or 2) insert a PVC pipe to your drainage layer which you can use to periodically siphon water. There is a detailed post in this thread by @GoodKarma19 which outlines the process in detail. Whether or not you will need to siphon water out occasionally depends on your misting schedule, number of misting nozzles and your enclosure dimensions, specifically the length and width. If it is "skinny" and tall, obviously water will rise more quickly. I have both a 24x18x36 and 36x18x36 glass enclosures and the 24x18 (LxW) occasionally needs to have water removed. I have not yet had more than a few millimeters of water accumulate at the bottom of my 36x18. This is because it takes more water for the level to rise and because I have a higher volume of substrate and also more plants (due to larger area for plants) in the 36x18.

Regarding your misting schedule - 3 minutes twice per day should be fine. I mist 3 times per day but the total duration is shorter (5 minutes). 2 minutes in the morning, 2 minutes just before lights out, and 1 minute midday. Keep in mind, even if your total duration was shorter, the longer the duration of a single misting session, the greater the chance more water will seep to the bottom.

Regarding bio-active setup, there is a good blog post by @cyberlocc which contains all the information you need. You can find it here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-bio-activity.2429/

Here are some additional thoughts I have about the different layers:

• Drainage layer: height can vary but I find somewhere between 1 and 2 inches to be more than sufficient. Many people use hydroton clay balls for media but other, non-toxic materials work just as well e.g. small rocks, lava rocks, filter sponge mat, egg crate, etc. You don't want anything too fine (like sand) which will reduce the water capacity.
  
  
• Separation layer: Keeps substrate from falling into the drainage layer. Anything non-toxic which allows water to pass through easily and blocks substrate will work fine. Most people use fine mesh. I use thin filter mat because it is more effective at containing the substrate.
  
  
• Filtration layer: not necessary but useful because active charcoal acts as a magnet for waste compounds and other things that could foul the water in your drainage layer. These waste compounds (like nitrates, nitrites, ammonia) are good for plants so it can be helpful to keep them in the substrate. In addition to putting down a thin layer of active charcoal on top of my separate layer, I also mix a good amount into my substrate for the reasons stated earlier and because springtails love it.
  
  
• Substrate layer: you can refer to @cyberlocc 's post for details on the substrate composition. As stated above, I also recommend mixing in a good amount of active charcoal.
  
  
• Leaf litter: many people leave this out in their bio-active setups but it is of vital importance as it serves as a primary shelter and food source for your cleanup crew.
  
  
• Cleanup crew: Cleanup crew consists of springtails and isopods. These are, by definition, what make bio-active, bio-active. Without a cleanup crew, you just have a planted enclosure, not a bio-active one. If you live in the states, congratulations. There are many places from which you can order springtails and isopods - Josh's Frogs is one of the more popular and reliable sources: https://www.joshsfrogs.com/bioactive.html
  
  I personally recommend the dwarf white isopods as they reproduce quickly, are inexpensive and are ideally suited for the warm, humid conditions of a chameleon enclosure. If you are partial to another species, they should work just fine also (with exception to some species that prefer dryer conditions). Though they are not frequently mentioned in bio-active discussions, I also strongly recommend adding red wriggler earthworms. Their function is similar to isopods though they provide additional benefits to your substrate (cleaning, aeration, fertilization through worm castings, etc.).

Phew!

Thank you so much! This answers pretty much all of my questions and I will definitely check out some of those links as well.