Doctor's Diagnosis!:O

[warpdrive]

Ryan, You may have wasted your money on this vet. I would advise you to get a second opinion. Jann

I have to fully agree.

to be honest, I wanted to reply a long time ago, but I felt that it would be more like some of the above and sound sarcastic...
in other words, I just don't understand what you can't replicate.
just what is it, that is so hard where you live?

sure, your cham is sick...but I don't think it's realy your fault unless you are lacking in something that is required and have no idea how to deal with this.

we realy need more info then you are saying...you also might need to see another vet.

Harry

 

[ChrisnLisa]

I am also not trying to be sarcastic, but I live in NV where it is 115F with 5% humidity. Your vet sounds like he gave you an easy answer to pacify the current situation. His eyes are closed...he is ill. What is he ill with? What type of tests did this vet do? any? He used to raise chams and the average lifespan he has witnessed is 2 years?...not someone I would take advise from personally. If it were me, I would be on the phone trying to find another qualified vet for a second opinion.

 

[Sage]

Indiana sucks. Weather is always messed up and felt bad for my cham. It canbe Rainey for a week then a drrought for a month.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Ryan, You may have wasted your money on this vet. I would advise you to get a second opinion. Jann

I agree. A vet who tells you the weather is causing eye issues and that chameleons typically live 2 years, max 5, is quite possibly an idiot and likely not educated about and experienced with chameleons. What vet did you see?

If you are "doing everything right" non-Ideal outdoor weather can be, should be, essentially irrelevant.

I have family in Inuvik, which is in the North West Territories of Canada. There are months where the sun doesnt come up, months where it doesnt go down, permafrost and ice roads. I cant imagine the weather where you are could be worse than Inuvik. My cousin has a chameleon (one that I bred). It is fine.

 

[Julirs]

Hmmmmm...Former NORTHERN INDIANA Hoosier here. I would certainly do things differently, but I am also not thrilled with what that Vet told you. Here is what I would do differently there from here (FL). I would cover 3 sides of my cage with plastic, and make sure my cage was pretty filled with plants. Mist heavily 3X daily. Use the proper lights and heat. I probably would have had to use ceramic heaters at night. I grew up on a lake with baseboard heat and survived via electric blanket-it was mighty cold in that house! I would have always used the flourescent fixtures that held 2 bulbs-one with UVB and the other with a regular flourescent-lots of day light is good as it does get dark and dreary up there. I ALWAYS had a humidifier in IN. Not a tabletop-but one of those full blown floor models. I think there are some things you CAN do to better your chams exisitence in good old Indiana.

 

[Pure]

I just looked through your other threads. This seems to be a reoccurring problem. I'm with every one else, Indiana is not your problem. And without blood tests there is no way to know exactly what may be the problem with this animal. It even could be that he is just genetically predisposed to eye problems.

Just for convenience for every one else I'm copy and pasting your cage info that you posted in an older thread.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - lxwxh 2x1x3Feet full screen with a plexiglass covered small door.
Lighting - 5.0 uvb uva reptiglow, also 75watt basking lamp.
Temperature - 85 at the highest(basking spot) Probably around 65-75 at lowest. During night around 60-70
Humidity - Not exactly sure,(humidity gage broke) I do manage to keep the humidity very decent though
Plants - Live ficus, but recently died. I have switched him to a hibiscus.
Placement - Cage is located in my room. Low traffic area. Is not near any vents. I do keep a fan on for air circulation during night.
Location - Tip of Indiana

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Furcifer Pardalis, male, 1 year almost three months.
Handling - Not often. Only when he wants to get out or when I sun bath him.
Feeding - Crickets, 8-10 every other day. I feed my crickets a mix of grains, supplements, and occasionally fruits and veggies.
Supplements - Repcal calcium without D3 on every other feeding. Herptivite and Calcium with D3 at least once a month.
Watering - I was using a pump mist recently but it broke so I've been using a squirt mister. 3-4 times a day for 3-5 minutes.
Fecal Description -Dark urates with the occasional white top. Not tested for parasites, he is captive bred from Screameleons.
History - He had been relatively fine
Current Problem - His right eye has been closed, I suspect it to be a vitamin A deficiency. Today, I found his other eye closed, a further symptom

On the vitamin A thing..Well if your vet didn't draw any blood, there is no way to be certain that this is or is not the issue, past and present.

You need a humidity gage. I would feel comfortable in the assumption that even with mistings your humidity is an issue. One of the main issues with Indiana is the dry climate. A simple fix to this is to put a whole room humidifier in your room. You say he is in "your room" so I assume this is your bedroom? If so, you will benefit from sleeping in this environment also, so stop being a fewl and go get a humidifier. j/k but not really...get one asap.

Also, your lighting, you said you use a reptiglo..Wile that may not be a coil type, it still has been mentioned more than once that these also can cause problems. You need to replace it with a reptisun. Forgive me if you've already changed that..this cage info is from back in June.

BTW...I detected no sarcastic tone in Carlton's post, he was just trying to help. Lighten up a little.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

Pretty frustrating medical situation, I'm sure . Fortunately or unfortunately, the Vet has basically left the ball in your court. I think you've still got a good chance at turning things around. As to what is wrong, hard to tell. This is where you go after any and all husbandry issues and eliminate them. Everything that isn't dead-center at the peak of optimal, even if you think that you are within reasonable limits, has to be closely examined. It's re-evaluation; big-time. Even if your chameleon has been doing fine for months or years, one of those husbandry variables may have set things in motion to get your chameleon to this point.

(P.S: Forum members will love you for doing this ).

Step one: (all over again!) Fill-in the https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ with super-detailed answers. Put in all of the tiny details that you can think of. Go waaaay beyond the quickie answers. Every brand name, the age of every supplement (expiration dates etc.), age of lights, how you kept/grew food items... Everything... Leave out nothing... I don't recall anyone complaining that a keeper posted too many details regarding a chameleon medical crisis .

Step two: Detailed photos of your chameleon. Well-focused, separate close-up shots of his body from all angles, separate shots of his eyes, feet, tail, mouth etc. Also lots of photos of his setup. Close-ups of the enclosure detailing inside and out. Post at least a total of two dozen shots. Didn't post that many? Then you didn't do your job . Don't have a digital camera? Borrow one or go out and buy one (spend the money here before you spend it on another vet visit) even if it is a relatively cheap one. Just use good lighting and a steady hand (prop it on something to keep it steady or use a camera stand and you'll get much better shots). If the shot didn't come out well-lit and well-focused, take another !

Don't skimp on the details or the photos. It's not like Brad is going to charge you extra .

Just go though everything that you can think of and write it down and photograph it. You've got the weekend to get on top of this. There may not be a lot more time left to nail-down the problem. Remember, the ball is in your court .

Years ago, I met keeper that had spent $3000 going to half a dozen vets all over California. The last one even did exploratory surgery trying to find out what was wrong with their Veiled chameleon. I was invited over to look at their setup. It all basically boiled-down to husbandry that any one of us could have spotted. They were sold the wrong equipment and given the wrong advice by a chain pet store. We sorted it all out and things improved.

Even if we can't solve this in time or that it's beyond solving, it'll be worth the time and effort to give you a clearer conscience that you went the distance to help your chameleon.

Oh, don't hesitate to take all of the info that you will gather (your written-up details along with all of your photos) to another vet for a 2nd opinion .

 

[Bio123]

There are people in Great Britain (where it's cold and dry) that raise chams. The weather is the exact opposite of say Madagascar. I don't think your vet has legit reasons.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - lxwxh 2x1x3Feet full screen with a plexiglass covered small door.
Lighting - 5.0 uvb uva reptiglow, also 75watt basking lamp.
Temperature - 85 at the highest(basking spot) Probably around 65-75 at lowest. During night around 60-70
Humidity - Not exactly sure,(humidity gage broke) I do manage to keep the humidity very decent though
Plants - Live ficus, but recently died. I have switched him to a hibiscus.
Placement - Cage is located in my room. Low traffic area. Is not near any vents. I do keep a fan on for air circulation during night.
Location - Tip of Indiana

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Furcifer Pardalis, male, 1 year almost three months.
Handling - Not often. Only when he wants to get out or when I sun bath him.
Feeding - Crickets, 8-10 every other day. I feed my crickets a mix of grains, supplements, and occasionally fruits and veggies.
Supplements - Repcal calcium without D3 on every other feeding. Herptivite and Calcium with D3 at least once a month.
Watering - I was using a pump mist recently but it broke so I've been using a squirt mister. 3-4 times a day for 3-5 minutes.
Fecal Description -Dark urates with the occasional white top. Not tested for parasites, he is captive bred from Screameleons.
History - He had been relatively fine
Current Problem - His right eye has been closed, I suspect it to be a vitamin A deficiency. Today, I found his other eye closed, a further symptom

On the vitamin A thing..Well if your vet didn't draw any blood, there is no way to be certain that this is or is not the issue, past and present.

You need a humidity gage. I would feel comfortable in the assumption that even with mistings your humidity is an issue. One of the main issues with Indiana is the dry climate. A simple fix to this is to put a whole room humidifier in your room. You say he is in "your room" so I assume this is your bedroom? If so, you will benefit from sleeping in this environment also, so stop being a fewl and go get a humidifier. j/k but not really...get one asap.

Also, your lighting, you said you use a reptiglo..Wile that may not be a coil type, it still has been mentioned more than once that these also can cause problems. You need to replace it with a reptisun. Forgive me if you've already changed that..this cage info is from back in June...

Howdy Pure,

Thanks for finding his previously posted info . Now to get even more details from him along with a ton of photos... I meant to mention photos of the room that the Panther is being kept in would be helpful too.

So beginning the "process of elimination":

Buy an 18" Reptisun 5.0 linear tube and a fixture. This is not so much that you are using a CFL (that model isn't putting out dangerous non-terrestrial UV like some others) or even that it is a ReptiGlo but this is just one of the things that you can do to eliminate a potential husbandry variable leading up to this crisis.

Your "75W basking lamp"... Flood or spot? Try a simple flood from Home Depot like their Philips Halogena brand 60W flood.

"85F" basking temp. How did you measure it? Optimally, you would use an infrared temp gun and measure your Panther's skin temp. Stick your hand right where he basks and make sure that it feels like a reasonably warm site (especially if you change lights).

"Nights 60-70F". Measure it and let us know what it really is this weekend.

"Humidity gauge broke" Home Depot combo humidity and temp and remote temp for about $15. No excuses .

"Switched to Hibiscus" Before or after the current problem started? Allergy? Pesticides? Get a different plant and wash the heck out of it and re-pot it. Try Schefflera, they're pretty cheap.

"Crickets". Only? Get silkies and hornworms and dubia roaches.

Gutload with Cricket Crack.

Depending on the detailed info that you provide about exactly how much unfiltered sunlight he gets per week, you may need to increase his D3 to 2-3 times a month.

"Pump mist broke" Electric motor pump mist? At least buy the Home Depot 1/2 gallon pump-up bottle and mist with warm water, twice a day, for 15 minutes or until he drinks.

Photos of his poop and his urates. Not tested for parasites . You were at the vet's office . Go back today or send me a sample. Certainly not to point a finger at Screameleons but breeders are susceptible to parasite infestations as much or more than anyone else. For example, a year's worth of Coccidia could possibly do just what you're seeing right now...

"History - He had been relatively fine". We need absolutes here . Give us the details of his medical life. Any slight deviations from "norm" may be a clue.

Even though vitamin A is not likely to be the problem, you could still single-dose him per my earlier PM and cross it off the list.

Now go back and take those photos and post even more details in the "help" list . Good luck!

 

[Dave Weldon]

There are people in Great Britain (where it's cold and dry) that raise chams. The weather is the exact opposite of say Madagascar. I don't think your vet has legit reasons.

Howdy,

Regarding the vet; I don't get to use the word "placate" very often but this vet, not knowing how to solve the problem (may not be solvable), "placated" the keeper with "you are doing everything right". While it may be true that everything was right as far as he was being informed, substantial questioning can always turn-up concerns that will need to be addressed regarding husbandry. Even the big (Mader) vet medical book points to husbandry issues as causing the vast majority of all reptile health issues.

Our task as chameleon keepers is to eliminate our local outside world's imperfect weather conditions and create the proper conditions within the space of our chameleon's indoor world. There have been posts in the past where someone lives in a cold (or dry or hot or dark or whatever) climate and that they can't create a proper environment for their chameleon in their part of the world. Not all keepers have the resources to create a micro-climate for their chameleon. It's not necessarily unfair but maybe they should re-consider keeping a chameleon. This is part of the challenge of chameleon keeping. Some chameleons can tolerate more variability in their environment than others but in the long run the better we create a micro-climate (more-less: light-dark, heat-cool, humidity, UVB, etc.) the better-off our chameleon will likely be .

 

[Trace]

I agree with Dave that many health issues in reptiles stem from improper husbandry so answer, in detail, the "How to ask for Help" stickie. Also, from my experience working with reptile veterinarians is the fact that owners don't necessarily listen to everything they say. A lot of reptile keepers go on the assumption that they know more than the doctors going into the appointment because that's what they've been told by forum groups such as this and these owners only hear and absorb what they want to. Not all reptile veterinarians are to blame here. If there is something you don't understand about what the doctor told you then call the doctor for clarification - they are more than happy to answer questions about your pet after your appointment. If, after that, you are still confused then perhaps a second opinion is warranted.

Good luck.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...these owners only hear and absorb what they want to...

Howdy Trace,

That reminds me of a conversation that I partially overheard at the last reptile show. It went something like this...

Customer's question: "Can a chameleon live on a ficus plant?" Breeder's answer: "Yes it can."

Customer went to the next breeder and said: "Breeder "A" told me that all my chameleon needs to eat is the ficus plant."

I believe that VegasChad can confirm most of this since he was the 2nd breeder in the conversation .

 

[nick barta]

Am I the only one to wonder if the problem is no Zoo Med Reptivite reptile vitamins which contains absorbable vitamin A?

This would account for the closed eye/eyes....

Pretty easy solution to try before expensive building remodeling

Nick

 

[sandrachameleon]

Am I the only one to wonder if the problem is no Zoo Med Reptivite reptile vitamins which contains absorbable vitamin A? This would account for the closed eye/eyes....
Pretty easy solution to try before expensive building remodeling
Nick

I take it you didnt read the entire thread? Vitamin A is where Fool started and got fixated.

 

[jojackson]

Yes, the weather is annual and it is sorta crappy.

What a co-incidence, the weather here tends to be annual aswell, happens every year!

Glad to hear its feeling better. Maybe it needs a vacation to Disney world, or anywhere the weather is less 'annual'. Good luck with your lizard, you brightened up my day!

 

[FooL111394]

Howdy Pure,

Thanks for finding his previously posted info . Now to get even more details from him along with a ton of photos... I meant to mention photos of the room that the Panther is being kept in would be helpful too.

So beginning the "process of elimination":

Buy an 18" Reptisun 5.0 linear tube and a fixture. This is not so much that you are using a CFL (that model isn't putting out dangerous non-terrestrial UV like some others) or even that it is a ReptiGlo but this is just one of the things that you can do to eliminate a potential husbandry variable leading up to this crisis.

Your "75W basking lamp"... Flood or spot? Try a simple flood from Home Depot like their Philips Halogena brand 60W flood.

"85F" basking temp. How did you measure it? Optimally, you would use an infrared temp gun and measure your Panther's skin temp. Stick your hand right where he basks and make sure that it feels like a reasonably warm site (especially if you change lights).

"Nights 60-70F". Measure it and let us know what it really is this weekend.

"Humidity gauge broke" Home Depot combo humidity and temp and remote temp for about $15. No excuses .

"Switched to Hibiscus" Before or after the current problem started? Allergy? Pesticides? Get a different plant and wash the heck out of it and re-pot it. Try Schefflera, they're pretty cheap.

"Crickets". Only? Get silkies and hornworms and dubia roaches.

Gutload with Cricket Crack.

Depending on the detailed info that you provide about exactly how much unfiltered sunlight he gets per week, you may need to increase his D3 to 2-3 times a month.

"Pump mist broke" Electric motor pump mist? At least buy the Home Depot 1/2 gallon pump-up bottle and mist with warm water, twice a day, for 15 minutes or until he drinks.

Photos of his poop and his urates. Not tested for parasites . You were at the vet's office . Go back today or send me a sample. Certainly not to point a finger at Screameleons but breeders are susceptible to parasite infestations as much or more than anyone else. For example, a year's worth of Coccidia could possibly do just what you're seeing right now...

"History - He had been relatively fine". We need absolutes here . Give us the details of his medical life. Any slight deviations from "norm" may be a clue.

Even though vitamin A is not likely to be the problem, you could still single-dose him per my earlier PM and cross it off the list.

Now go back and take those photos and post even more details in the "help" list . Good luck!

I'm getting started on this ASAP. Also, where can I find this "cricket crack"? And is it possible that Waldo may have contracted the flu from me?

 

[Dave Weldon]

I'm getting started on this ASAP. Also, where can I find this "cricket crack"? And is it possible that Waldo may have contracted the flu from me?

Howdy,

Cricket Crack: Send a PM to SSimsswiSS for price and delivery. Get a pound and keep it refrigerated to extend its freshness.

Infect your chameleon with the Flu virus?: Not likely. It has to mutate to pass from one species to another.

 

[niese4pigs]

I live in Louisville, KY and have no idea what you can not replicate?? Sorry but good luck

 

[Pure]

Howdy,

Cricket Crack: Send a PM to SSimsswiSS for price and delivery. Get a pound and keep it refrigerated to extend its freshness.

I was unaware of the need to refrigerate this stuff. I'll stick mine in there asap. Thanks Dave!

 

[Dave Weldon]

I was unaware of the need to refrigerate this stuff. I'll stick mine in there asap. Thanks Dave!

Howdy Shannen,

It isn't mandatory to refrigerate it but it can be beneficial in extending its shelf life . I've not had it go bad with it either in the frig or not. By going bad, I mean having it become moldy or rancid.