Distinction between Trioceros Quadricornis subspecies
- Thread starter Motherlode Chameleon
- Start date
SCharton74
Member
update?
Chris,
Did you ever get around to posting about this? I'd like to know what you came up with in Cameroon.
Thanks,
Shawn
Chris,
Did you ever get around to posting about this? I'd like to know what you came up with in Cameroon.
Thanks,
Shawn
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
We only were able to locate a single adult T. q. quadricornis specimen while we were there, so I wasn't able to get the detailed morphometric data from a large enough sample of individuals to test for differentiating features. That said, photos from the trip, including photos of both subspecies of T. quadricornis, can be found in the following links:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/exo-terra-cameroon-expedition-mount-cameroon-55779/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/exo-terra-cameroon-expedition-2-nyassosso-mount-kupe-56261/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/exo-terra-cameroon-expedition-3-mount-manengouba-56644/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/exo-terra-cameroon-expedition-4-mount-oku-57382/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/exo-terra-cameroon-expedition-5-mount-manengouba-pt-2-a-58897/
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
The red/pink coloration of the toenails is a phenotype of Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. However not all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior have got this phenotype or red/pink toenails. This is my evaluation of red/pink toenails on Trioceros quadricornis or Trioceros quadricornis gracilior subspecies.
Best Regards
Jeremy A.Rich
Best Regards
Jeremy A.Rich
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Jeremy,
What are you basing your statement that "not all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior have got [...] pink toenails"? Have you ever seen a single animal that has been definitively identified as Trioceros quadricornis gracilior without the red toenails? Every definitive specimen I have ever seen, and every specimen that matches the external morphology of the subspecies, has always had the red toenails. I think its fair to say that we don't know for sure at this point that all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior have red toenails, but to say that not all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior do is a different statement, which I've never seen anything to support.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
Just a theory from some conversations from a retailer/importer from these recent shipments earlier this year of Trioceros quadricornis gracilior that seemed worthy to post about. It seeming to be a phenotype and not a major anatomical difference I figured I would post. My sub adult male Trioceros quadricornis gracilior has got some what red/pink toenails. However they are absolutely not as developed as some of the other specimens I have seen. The retailer seemed to think some of his other Trioceros quadricornis labeled Trioceros quadricornis quadricornis were most probably Trioceros quadricornis gracilior without that red/pink toenail phenotype and it seemed a worthy topic/theory to post about. Especially with my sub adult male showing minimal red/pink toenail development and from other photo's posted.
I am going to gather some photo's and post. If the retailer has kept the Trioceros quadricornis ssp. in question.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
So, as I said, its fair to say that we don't know for sure at this point that all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior have red toenails, but to say that not all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior do is a different statement, which there is currently nothing to support.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
The retailer/importer seemed to think they had some Trioceros quadricornis gacilior without red/pink toenails. Along with mine if they have got any specimens that are in question I can post pictures/photos for review.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Differentiating Trioceros quadricornis quadricornis from Trioceros quadricornis gacilior is not always easy, and I've never met an importer who can do so with confidence. That is not a slight at anyone, simply a fact that very few people have the experience and intimate knowledge of this species to do so. We have a lot to learn still about the variation of T. quadricornis subspecies across their range, which is exactly why its important not to make statements as fact when they are not properly vetted. Having reduced or lighter red in the nail is not absence, and until photographs of specimens that do lack the red coloration are produced that otherwise appropriately correspond with the remaining differentiating characters of Trioceros quadricornis gacilior, we can not say that not all Trioceros quadricornis gacilior have the red nails.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
I am not posting this situation as a fact. I am posting this as a theory and an evaluation of a situation of the sub species of Trioceros quadricornis. If I locate any pictures/photo's of the Trioceros quadricornis ssp. in question I am going to post the pictures/photos of the specimens.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
I have some Trioceros quadricornis ssp. labeled as Trioceros quadricornis gracilior that are adults and appear to have no red/pink toenails. Look at Heroic Chameleons Facebook page and the breeder male posted on the pictures/photos there. That male appears not to have red/pink toenails and is labeled as an adult Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. This appears to add to the originally posted theory.
If Chuck gives me permission I shall post pictures/photos here.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
I have some Trioceros quadricornis ssp. labeled as Trioceros quadricornis gracilior that are adults and appear to have no red/pink toenails. Look at Heroic Chameleons Facebook page and the breeder male posted on the pictures/photos there. That male appears not to have red/pink toenails and is labeled as an adult Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. This appears to add to the originally posted theory.
If Chuck gives me permission I shall post pictures/photos here.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Jeremy,
The animal labeled as T. q. gracilior posted on Heroic Chameleons' Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/2616430872...364324.57907.261643087216310/263501400363812/) does have the red/pink toenails if you look at another photo of that animal (https://www.facebook.com/2616430872...364324.57907.261643087216310/263501407030478/). They are not as vibrant as some individuals, but there is individual variation and they are definitely the red color rather than the non red pigmented nails seen the nominate subspecies. Further, many keepers have noted that some chameleons often become more blue after being in captivity for an extended period or when captive bred. Its specifically been mentioned to me with T. quadricornis as well. While the cause of this is not explicitly known, it would not be surprising if this was dietary, and likely carotenoid based, which could not only result in a less green and more blue coloration, but also paling of the nails. Thus, it would not be surprising to see variation, particularly in captivity, in the intensity of the red nail coloration in T. q. gracilior.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
Here is another picture of one of Chuck Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. This picture/photo looks to me as though this male does not have much if any red/pink pigment at all.
Based on your theory that the red/pink toenails could be caused by dietary causes. If that is the case theoretically wild populations of Trioceros quadricornis gracilior without the appropriate dietary supplementation could or may not have red or pink toenails. This meaning that the red and pink toenail trait is not consistent way of IDing all wild Trioceros quadricornis gracilior imports. This supported by your statements that the red/pink toenail color becomes less enhanced in captivity due to the lack of an appropriate diet. All this supports the theory I posted that the pink toenails may not be a good way to ID Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. No conclusions yet however I am going to look at more specimens.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Here is another picture of one of Chuck Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. This picture/photo looks to me as though this male does not have much if any red/pink pigment at all.
Based on your theory that the red/pink toenails could be caused by dietary causes. If that is the case theoretically wild populations of Trioceros quadricornis gracilior without the appropriate dietary supplementation could or may not have red or pink toenails. This meaning that the red and pink toenail trait is not consistent way of IDing all wild Trioceros quadricornis gracilior imports. This supported by your statements that the red/pink toenail color becomes less enhanced in captivity due to the lack of an appropriate diet. All this supports the theory I posted that the pink toenails may not be a good way to ID Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. No conclusions yet however I am going to look at more specimens.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Chris
Here is another picture of one of Chuck Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. This picture/photo looks to me as though this male does not have much if any red/pink pigment at all.
Nope, it too definitely has the red coloration in the nails. Look at the nails on the front right limb.
Variable and reduced intensity is not a lack thereof, and your theoretical situation would require the complete and prolonged lack of all carotenoids in the diet. At any rate, until you can produce a single photograph of an animal that is definitively T. q. gracilior and lacks the red pigmentation in the nails, I'm going to stand by my statement that its fair to say that we don't know for sure at this point that all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior have red toenails, but to say that not all Trioceros quadricornis gracilior do is a different statement, which there currently is no evidence to support.
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris
Those nails look as red as the branch he is on to me from that picture/photo.
I am going to look forward to next years imports of Trioceros quadricornis gracilior. If they happen. Dietary derived traits are not normally a good way to identify subspecies or species. Thanks Chuck G for allowing me to use your picture/photo.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Chuck G
Avid Member
This is a fresh pic from today. He complied showing the nails. To be honest, I have seen more red on females and these are definitely lighter. I am just glad I ended up being the center of attention. I enjoy being the prettiest girl at the dance. You guys continue hashing it out. Chris and Jeremy,please feel free to use any of my pics on the forums for future discussions. Also Chris, I will have your article on Parsonii ready!
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Thanks, Chuck! The red in the nails is definitely not as vibrant as some individuals, but you can tell in the new picture that its definitely present.
Look forward to the article! Thanks!
Chris
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks Chuck for new updated picture/photo. The red/pink toenail is minimally present. I would say it would be easy for people in the hobby looking at a Trioceros quadricornis gracilior with this type of toenail to even ID it as not a red/pink toenail specimen. It is not the best example of a red/pink toenail Trioceros quadricornis gracilor. No conclusions yet however I am going to keep an eye out for more examples.
Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
