Diagnosed with MBD, can't open mouth :(

[Endangeredjen]

I can fill out an Ask for Help Form, but I would like to just get this post out there. I took my Jackson's to the Vet yesterday and it was bad news. Godzilla has early stages of MBD, but Karma's is more advanced. They are 4 mos. old. Of course I didn't have the calcium supplement correct. I was dusting the crickets, but putting them in a big vivarium with the chameleons. I'm thinking a lot of the dust washed off, also I couldn't tell who was eating and who wasn't and with two males in the cage and one female, well I think Karma got the brunt of things...

The vet didn't give Karma a calcium shot yesterday, she is 11 grams, not sure if she is big enough (?). He did give me some calcium drops, Neocalglugon. At the office, we forced Karma's mouth open and put in one drop. But now this morning, it is pretty apparent that Karma can't open her mouth her own. I think she had some sort of seizure thing and turned pale yellow and white last night and pooped. I thought for sure she was dead, but some how she is still alive this morning. I've been able to give her a little water, but since she can't open her mouth, I am really hesitant to prey open her mouth!! The Vet said she could either have trouble with the tongue bone or the mouth bone.

I was able to give her one drop of calcium this morning, one small cricket that I just basically placed in her mouth- I am not sure if she is sucking on it or actually swallowed- I think swallowed and a small amount of water which she swallowed.

My question is this- how much suffering can this poor animal endure? She can't grip with her right front leg, it is definitely broken, she is just laying there, moving her eyes around. I've been reading about people feeding blended collard greens, crickets and pedialyte, I have the calcium drops, but it seems like Karma's situation is beyond this point.

Should I take her into the Vet and have her Euthanized? I feel terrible, but what I do? just do my best, and she goes on for a couple hours, days and then dies? I'm just so upset right now. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[laurie]

Ok something is big time wrong. A cham doesn't go from looking good three weeks ago to MBD so bad it can't move or open it's mouth today. Is only one having problems or are all three having problems? Could you post pictures of all 3 of them, please? Also what did the vet do to determine your cham has MDB? poor little tyke.

Filling out the form at this point would be very helpful.

 

[Endangeredjen]

Ask for Help Form

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?: Jackson Chameleon, been in my care for 3 mos, was about a month old when I got them. 3 of them, Two males and one female. Uncle, Godzilla and female Karma.
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?: no more than once a day.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?: Flies at first, which they did well on, the more cricket heavy. Gut loaded with potatoe and bee pollen.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule: ReptoCal Calcium and D3, once a week. I thought that since they were babies and spending so much time outside in the sun that it would be okay...
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?: They have a dropper that I made. In addition, I work from home and go outside and takes breaks, I mist the whole cage for like 2 to 5 minutes about every 2 or 3 hours. I see them drinking, they are very hydrated.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Solid poops, sometimes white stuff attached.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.: These are wild caught chameleons from Hawaii. I bought from a breeder when they were about 1 month old.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?: Screen cage, 18x30- rectangle deal, pretty standard.
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?: They go outside when the sun comes up at 6 AM and stay out there until sunset. I move them around based on the time of day, so they aren't getting beamed with direct sunlight.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?: Temperatures are good here in Hawaii. It has been rather hot this summer, had to watch for 90 temps in the cage and mist. Mainly 82 to 85. Drops to 78 to 79 at night.
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? It's Hawaii, plenty humid.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?: No live plants at this point, lots of plastic plants.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?: They stay outside, sometimes I move them from a sunny (not too sunny/direct sun) area on the deck over to the shaded area in afternoon, but that is about it. The cage has shade but still has blue sky visible (ie. getting beamed with UVB).
Location - Where are you geographically located? Hawaii.


Current Problem - Listed above, advanced MBD.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

First off, sorry to hear of your troubles with your little ones. If she is having pathologic fractures (where the bones break when they are just too weak from MBD) like in her arm it is possible that her jaw may have suffered a small break when it was opened and now it hurts to much for her to want to open it. I've also seen a paper or two recently involving a deficiency in vitamin E possibly causing muscle problems with the jaw. It wasn't conclusively proven and in your case I believe bee pollen has a decent amount of vit E so I doubt that would be it. But if she hurts she won't be wanting to move very much.

Be very careful putting any liquids into her mouth if she isn't actively responding because if she doesn't swallow it right away she might inhale it instead and that could be deadly. Neocalglugon is good stuff and it is actually absorbed better orally than in shot form so I don't think that was a bad move.

It sounds like she's gotten plenty of good sunlight so her problems probably were primarily nutritional deficiencies - she probably wasn't getting enough food and the food she had didn't have enough calcium. Make sure you change your gutloading to include dark leafy greens that are high in calcium for the other two as well.

Some chameleons are very resilient and can recover from MBD, but it may take a lot of hard work and time. Riven's little cham is currently in the early recovery phase of MBD and you can see all the time and work she is putting into it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-poss-impaction-veiled-female-67257/index22.html. They tend to get worse before they get better and sometimes it's simply too much for their little fragile bodies to handle.

You are the best person to determine whether or not she is suffering and whether or not you would be able to put in the time and work to try to get her better. It's not that you don't want to make her better because you obviously do, but that kind of commitment isn't possible for everyone depending on your other obligations and comfort level with the treatments. If you feel that she is suffering without much chance for recovery then please do not let her suffer further. But if you are ready to get on the road to recovery then we will be happy to help you through it. Riven's thread is a wealth of information now as she updates it frequently with great info and tips! There are also a lot of other MBD threads so I would recommend you go through hers and few others before you make any decisions. There are lots of MBD success stories, but it's not a guarantee since every cham starts off and responds differently.

Her arm will heal on its own in a few weeks and putting a splint or cast on can actually cause more breaks so we just let them heal on their own. Unfortunately she's too small for pain meds, which are of questionable efficacy in reptile to begin with.

A picture would be good so we can see what you're dealing with.

 

[kinyonga]

In addition to what's been said already you said..."ReptoCal Calcium and D3, once a week"...IMHO I would have been dusting the insects with phos.-free calcium at most feedings and no more than twice a month, lightly with a phos. free calcium/D3 as well as improving the gutload.

Also...I would squish the head of the cricket wo it won't bite her if she is just going to hold it in her mouth.

 

[Action Jackson]

Also if I might add. From reading your post you are keeping all three of them in an 18x18x30 cage. In my opinion they should be kept separately. The added stress of being housed together will not help with their recovery.

 

[Endangeredjen]

Update

Karma is doing somewhat better today. I was able to give her the calcium drop this morning and she swallowed some water. I put a somewhat smashed cricket in her mouth and she ate it! Her mouth is working!! She ate two crickets! I have put fresh kale in with the crickets and doing the potato, bee pollen mix, maybe add some store brought gut load too. and I'm hoping to get some type of worms to feed them today, I think I have tracked down a composting store that may have hornworms...

Godzilla still won't eat on his own, but I was able to feed him 3 crickets that I put in his mouth, he chomped them which is great! He took his calcium drop as well as a small amount of water. I'm going to try again in the afternoon with the same process.

I'm going to check out that other member's posts about how she nursed her babies back to health. Also, I'm working on getting them separate cages, it would be best overall and of course for the recovery, to be honest, its just expensive-especially in hawaii, I'm going to check on craigslist now.

On a positive note, Uncle is doing great, nice and green, cruising around the cage, eating crickets like normal, he is such a beast.

I'm going to try and get my camera back soon, I know pictures would really be helpful. Thank you all for your help and comments, I guess I haven't been doing the best job and I just feel awful. I have a lot of time and work from home, so I can really do whatever I need to get them back on track. I'm hoping I'll have the chance, I love them so much and they are so awesome, each with their own personality and quirks!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

That's great to hear! First things first though, we need to improve your gutloading to make sure she's getting good nutrition instead of just food in her belly. Stop using the kale and potatoes completely. The kale has high oxalates, which prevents the calcium from being absorbed by Karma so she can't use the calcium she's getting. It's okay if you have a healthy cham, but not in an MBD case. The potatoes don't have any good nutrients in it so it's just empty filler. You need better ingredients to get her on track.

Gutloading ingredients should be chosen that are higher in calcium than phosphorus. High phosphorus levels in the food impedes calcium absorption. Inadequate dietary calcium leads to metabolic bone disease. Commercially available gutloads (such as Fluker Farms Cricket Food) are not balanced or sufficient for good nutrition in any species. Ideally there should be a wet and dry component to your gut load:

Good Wet Gutloading Ingredients: dandelion leaves, collard greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole lettuce, butternut squash, mango, alfalfa sprouts, oranges, blueberries, raspberries, sweet potato, strawberries, hibiscus leaves and flowers, papaya

Good Dry Gutload Ingredients: bee pollen, alfalfa powder, kelp powder, brewer’s yeast, wheat germ, raw uncooked sunflower seeds, raw uncooked pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, small amounts of whole grain cereals, spirulina algae, tortoise pellets

Foods to AVOID: Broccoli, spinach, beets, and parsley, have large amounts of oxalic acids which bind calcium absorption. Lettuces and cabbage do not have any significant nutritional value. Also, avoid things like dog food, cat food, and fish flakes which are high in animal proteins which can cause kidney damage. Feeding such things like pinky-mice, fuzzies, and feeder anoles that are extremely high in fat and protein content is harmful to your chameleon's health, bones and organs that can lead to serious illnesses like gout, edema, organ failure and fatality.


This site has nutritional info on many commonly available fruits and veggies to help guide you in choosing good gut loading ingredients: http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm

I think the bee pollen is fine to use but she is missing calcium and that's what she needs the most of right now. Make sure she gets calcium powder (without phosphorus or D3) with every feeding in addition to the liquid. Picking calcium rich food to feed your crickets is critical.

 

[Endangeredjen]

Going to Petco

Thanks for the gutloading info, I just read through almost all of Riven's thread in detail and have so much more info! So grateful.

Luck for me, there is a Petco about 5 minutes from my house and another petstore close as well.

Shopping list for today:

1) ReptiCal powder with JUST calcium. (will dust at every meal for sure- Uncle
needs good supplementing before he gets sick too!)
2) I wrote down the list of gut-load material. I'm going to the store, will probably end up with some papaya since it is in abundance here and definitely, some of the leafy greens listed.
3) More crickets.
4) I'm going to order some butterworms (?) from Mulberry Farms. I don't think the compost store will have what I need...
5) Should I consider doing the bug soup like Riven did? If I am able to feed them crickets and worms, that should be okay, until they are able to eat on their own again... (?)

Thoughts?

Jen

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Butterworms are great! They are very high in calcium and my chams love them. If she will eat solid bugs then go ahead on go with that but if not bug soup may not be a bad idea.