Detailed account of female/male introduction - plus questions?

[Phinfan31]

BACK STORY:

Hey guys,

I've owned a male Jackson Chameleon for approx. 6 months, and we believe he was about 6-7 months when we purchased him. That puts him a little over a year old I believe.

Today we just purchased a female Jackson and -- quick question -- can anybody give me a ballpark estimate of how old she is? (You can see her in photo#1) Do you believe that she is ready for breeding? She was the biggest one available at our store, and the lady seemed to think she was old enough...

INTRODUCTION:

So today as soon as we got home we pulled the male out of his cage and put the female inside while he was out an about. We figured that if we pulled him out, moved a few things around inside, and put her inside when he WASN'T IN there...that it might prevent him from being as territorial. We put her near the top of the cage where she remained.

So what happened when we put him inside? We put him at the bottom in order to see how he would react....he IMMEDIATELY climbed up - and with a purpose - to the top of the cage right beneath her. He became bright, bright green. We figured he was staging to climb up on her.

However, the first thing he did was a little strange....he opened his mouth about halfway and just stared at her from right beneath her. Her first reaction upon him getting close was turning darker colors and rocking back an forth. (We were told to expect this upon first meeting as it is declaring territory)

But after these first maybe...20 seconds of this behavior they both completely chilled out??? Her color returned back to normal, and the male had closed up his mouth and just stared at her.

If you look at Photo #2, this was taken after they relaxed (about 1-2 min. later) They both ended up closing their eyes and going to sleep in these exact positions in this picture and haven't moved since. We thought it was cute...but I know this is abnormal and in general - putting more than one in a cage is not advised at all...but it would certainly be more convenient. Based on these first interactions...were not sure what to think?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now one thing to bear in mind - our male Jackson is no ordinary Chameleon. He enjoys being handled by humans, is very comfortable, and has never hissed, bitten, or otherwise done anything to give us the notion he is really pissed off. Of course on rare occasions he changes his color but other than that - nothing. The only thing we find him doing on occasion is this mouth-opening thing...but when he does it is completely RANDOM. We have never been able to directly associate the behavior with any one thing.

Also - the female seems to be JUST like him. Absolutely no anger out of her besides one occasion where she turned dark for approx. 1-2 min. the first time of handling. After that shes relaxed and seems to be completely chill...rests on you, relaxes, etc. - just like the male.

It appears that they're both just very relaxed and non-aggressive chams...could this be an advantage to actually having them live together?

QUESTIONS:

- With that all in mind, what do you think? Is this an experiment worth continuing? I've read contradictory information - and the employee at the pet store said that since their chams (our chams) are in a huge cage with like dozens of others since they're born all the way up till they're purchased (usually around 6 months old it looks like) and that they're used to it and it should be O.K.? Keep in mind - they are in very close quarters...within inches, or 1 ft apart at the most. They're used to this type of environment. I know of the trade offs though - stress, competition for food, basking spots, etc...but if their personalities are so chill, and I have a really good setup (could adjust it to accomodate them?, e.g. arranging vegetation in the middle and all the sticks/limbs on each side?) - if I have such a setup could I try this out?

- Our cage is a Medium Reptibreeze. Its been seemingly MORE than enough for our male...IF we chose to keep these two together and see how it goes, is this of sufficient size?? Please view Photo #3 for a visual.

- Is there enough vegetation inside to prevent them from seeing each other/allowing them to be more comfortable?

- I'd like to take this opportunity to ask for any other comments on the setup? - light fixtures, etc.? The UVB light is the one you see directly on top of the cage (its such low watts that its never been an issue being that close), and you can see the 100 watt heat lamp clamped up above the cage on the right. (Photo #4)

I would sincerely appreciate any advice you guys can give.

Aloha

 

[DragoLikesReptiles]

Chameleons are solitary animals. Don't put them together because they will breed, or the female will be unreceptive, and maybe hurt your male. More vegetation will not help them not see eachother.

 

[MplsCham]

Honestly, a 16"x16"x30" enclosure is probably a little too small for an adult male Jackson's even alone? I would recommend an 18"x18"x36" minimum for a male, as they are more active. The smaller one would probably be fine for the female, although ideally the same for her. I will say, I do love the aesthetics of your decorating, so do the same with a larger enclosure for the male. It's not good to experiment with chams, there's decades of husbandry of what works. And put some kind of visual divider between their enclosures if their near each other. Post some picks of your new enclosure for the male, I'd love to see how you decorate it!!

 

[carol5208]

That size enclosure is small, even for an adult Jacksons. Putting the two of them together is a mistake. Although things may appear to be fine on the outside, they may be deteriorating on the inside from stress. A silent killer that is unseen. I would purchase another enclosure and separate them. Funny I should read this today....my niece texted me today and told me her nephew bought another Jackson's(he already had one male) and put the new one in with the old one. The old one died 4 days later. I do not know if it was male/male or male/female. He is from Illinois and came to visit me in December with my niece. He told me he was going to get another and he and his mother asked me about housing the together which I told him not to. Wish he would have listened to me. In rare cases chameleons can cohabitate. Pygmy chameleons can live together, but they are one of the few species that I know of.

 

[Phinfan31]

Thanks for the responses.

Big Update:

This morning we got up extra early (knowing the males schedule) to see him already on the prowl and after the female.

She was not having it. He would try to climb on her back, but she would grab his limbs (her nails are longer than his and her grip is incredibly strong) and open her mouth as she held him down/back away from getting a full mount. Its strange...because while the male is being VERY aggressive for mating - he is extremely gentle with how he touches her when trying to get on her back. She, on the other hand, is very strong and physical with him - when she grabbed his neck with her long nails we knew it was time to pull her out.

After separating them we noticed the male has the typical black spots that indicate bruising, etc. from when she grabbed him.

Definitely gonna keep them separated from this point on...but what about mating potential? I'll do a little research as to the mating process...but if anyone has any insight as to how to be successful with this I would appreciate it. They're both Jacksons, from the same store, likely from the same supplier...but its not like they lived together before and consider each other as "siblings" like I've read before. I'm sure its very ignorant for me to think that putting her in a foreign environment with a male on the first night she was with us was going to work...the stress must have been through the roof despite her not showing any exterior signs of it.

As for her current new home...its our first tank that we bought which is glass and has a screen top...its definitely not a long term solution...its even smaller than this cage. So we will have to save up for another big cage I guess.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[kinyonga]

So you didn't quarantine them from each other for several weeks before keeping them in the same room?

When introducing two chameleons to each other for mating when you see signs of aggression they should be separated (Her first reaction upon him getting close was turning darker colors and rocking back an forth.) so that they wouldn't attack each other. In the wild the female can move away from the male if she doesn't want to mate...in a cage she is trapped and left no alternative but to fight.

Generally what I advise when trying to mate chameleons is to hold the female outside the male's cage. If they are not acting in an aggressive manner the female can be placed in the male's cage...but I continue to watch for aggressive reactions. If/when they show signs of aggression, the female is removed from the male's cage.

 

[Phinfan31]

Thanks kinyonga,

they are apart now, and I've made an effort to ensure they don't see each other from each cage.

Can they see each other though? Is it stressful when they're far away to see each other in another enclosure? Or would this make them potentially more comfortable when they are in the same space?

Thanks

 

[kinyonga]

I wasn't concerned about them SEEING each other when I talked about quarantine...I was concerned with them passing disease between each other and you losing one or both as a result.

You might like to read this...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/quarantine-36078/

 

[Phinfan31]

Thank you so much for that link. That is great information to know and I will make a strong effort to ensure I am following those guidelines.

I am including a new picture for everyone to analyze.

I think shes gravid!?

I didn't know what that meant at first, but now that I do...it appears that she is showing the signs. Her belly seems very abnormally large, she was turning black, rocking back and forth, and opening her mouth and pinning the male down when he would try to mount her...all signs that I've read that she might be gravid.

So...can anybody confirm from this visual? It certainly looks weird, doesn't it? I also thought that her posture is a little strange...its like shes keeping her arms up so not to put any unnecessary pressure on her body. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[kinyonga]

I would give her some privacy for a few days.

 

[Phinfan31]

Hey guys another update:

The female cham is still in my old terrarium while we save some cash to get the male a bigger cage. She'll then take his setup. She still wants nothing to do with the male. The moment she sees him and they get close she turns super dark and rocks back and forth with her mouth open. I haven't put them back in the same cage after the last time...so I just get them close on opposite sides and see their reactions. He does his mating dance with his head and she isn't having it...lol

So does anyone think she is gravid? Based on her behavior towards him and the pictures of her body?

Our heat lamp bulb went out so we had bought a 100W and didnt realize how hot it would be. It killed our plant so we had to go buy a new one. This is the current setup until we get another plant that has more stuff for him to climb on. After we rearranged his home and put him back inside this was his reaction...lol. We seem to think hes happy but not sure?

 

[Phinfan31]

/bump thread.

Can anyone answer my last post? Regarding her? The pictures are at the end of page 1. She still hates him. He does his head dance and she gets super pissed and does her wabble n opens her mouth. If he comes near she is ready to attack. I've only introduced him like once every week...

Does anyone think she is gravid from those photos? How else would you know?

 

[nickeeyy]

I know it‘s been a very long time but what became of this ?? Thanks @kinyonga