Deadly Chameleon Myth series

[MissSkittles]

Petr Necas has/is writing some short articles which are most interesting. https://www.chameleons.info/l/deadly-chameleon-myths-series-where-ignorance-ends-and-rigor-begins/ So far, I do find that the general husbandry which we as a whole follow is right in step. Currently, only five are posted, and links to them can be found here, on Petr’s site. https://www.chameleons.info/en/

 

[DocZ]

I think it’s been very good and interesting so far, and I love his passion

 

[LizardLurkin]

I know we have our ways of reducing the ulric acid load of roaches, namely in making their consistent diet not entail the typical gutload diet, but I do wonder what the ultimate takeaway is. Should we not gutload them at all following the typical gutload guide just to be safe?
Roaches are widely available and feeder insect diversity is still quite lacking. They're also less gross to deal with compared to crickets, so it'd be very difficult to omit them completely.

I'm also curious then, does this mean calcium dusting should look like powdered donuts?

The world is being flipped upside down.

 

[nightanole]

Meh. Not really digging the final verdicts. It boils down to "dont bring up a problem if you dont present a solution".

"dont feed your cham commercial insects, one that leads to terrible pain, suffering, and guaranteed death."

Welp guess ill start breeding Madagascar bees or something.

"light dusting is bad". Have you seen the surface area of 1-2 dozen non adult insects that are powdered enough to change color? Are we going back to ghost crickets. Also keep in mind Petr wants use to feed lots of low calorie insects, so thats a huge amount of surface area.

I do agree on alot of his other points. Especially the cages. Im not sure if yall have done "unlimited cage sizes". For me they tend to act like fish, and dont really walk up/down, they kinda stay in one story +-1ft.


Also im results driven. If we do A, and 50%+ chams die around the same age and the same cause, A is bad. But when its "if you dont fog you will get URI and kidney issues" and we have data/chams since the 90's not getting URI and kidney issues and never fogged...

 

[nightanole]

I know we have our ways of reducing the ulric acid load of roaches, namely in making their consistent diet not entail the typical gutload diet, but I do wonder what the ultimate takeaway is. Should we not gutload them at all following the typical gutload guide just to be safe?
Roaches are widely available and feeder insect diversity is still quite lacking. They're also less gross to deal with compared to crickets, so it'd be very difficult to omit them completely.

I'm also curious then, does this mean calcium dusting should look like powdered donuts?

The world is being flipped upside down.

Petr is very black and white on "nuanced" subjects.

I can answer your two questions

"animals" can not store protein. If its got 4 legs, then the only source of protein is the free floating amino acid pool that is "in the organs". Its not much, maybe a months supply during a starvation event. Then the organs start swelling. Insects on the other hand are perfect fine storing excess protein like we store excess fat. They store it as uric acid. But guess what, since us 4 leggers cant produce uric acid, our bodies really dont know what to do with it. So in abundance it just stores it at the joints in a crystalized form of gout. So just dont feed your bugs the high protein diet that the bug farms use, and you will be fine. Bug grow super fast on the fish food/dog diet, but its like 30-60% protein...

As for the powder, if its just calcium powder, yup you can have little donuts running around. Perfectly fine. The issue comes up when you start powdering with non water soluble vitamins/minerals such as D and A. We have all seen what happens if you get the high D powder and have donuts walking around.

 

[LizardLurkin]

Petr is very black and white on "nuanced" subjects.

I can answer your two questions

"animals" can not store protein. If its got 4 legs, then the only source of protein is the free floating amino acid pool that is "in the organs". Its not much, maybe a months supply during a starvation event. Then the organs start swelling. Insects on the other hand are perfect fine storing excess protein like we store excess fat. They store it as uric acid. But guess what, since us 4 leggers cant produce uric acid, our bodies really dont know what to do with it. So in abundance it just stores it at the joints in a crystalized form of gout. So just dont feed your bugs the high protein diet that the bug farms use, and you will be fine. Bug grow super fast on the fish food/dog diet, but its like 30-60% protein...

As for the powder, if its just calcium powder, yup you can have little donuts running around. Perfectly fine. The issue comes up when you start powdering with non water soluble vitamins/minerals such as D and A. We have all seen what happens if you get the high D powder and have donuts walking around.

I do appreciate your answers.
I went through a bout where shipping nonsense happened so I only had my dubia roaches for over a week (and they accidentally sent mealworms on top of that, so more waiting.) Me, already being aware of the anxiety around dubia roaches and their potential to cause gout, was already worried and the article has such drastic wording (like they will die a painful death sort of phrases) that I felt dread...
The roaches I have only eat repashy bug burger or proper roach chow, and the proper gutload the day before they get fed off.

It is pretty unavoidable to not get some donut looking fellows when using reptocal. It is more clumpy, sticky than repashy supplements for sure.

 

[jamest0o0]

I’m with @nightanole. To add, Uric acid should not be dangerous with normal kidney function and hydration, especially with cutting down on high protein diets. Excess bee pollen on the other hand is linked to kidney issues with people. I think bee pollen is a great supplement, but not in the quantities people would think to use it for chameleons.

Natural isn’t always better, animals evolve to survive their environments, not necessarily thrive in them. Blowing fog from a machine is not the same as a natural fog. It’s suspicious that so many RIs seem to pop up with this new advice to fog, yet I don’t remember it being a common issue when people were spraying the hell out of their cages all day. I’ll admit though maybe I’m just imagining that things were better.

Anyway, I fed my Cham’s roach heavy diets that probably had more protein than they needed and I misted a ton and I never saw gout or respiratory issues. No parasites either. Maybe I was lucky idk… I did change to and like the idea of early morning and evening misting sessions though just because it seemed to make more sense. Do I think it matters all that much… Not at all.

 

[MissSkittles]

I did hesitate and thought about posting these links as I know and remember too well some past controversies with Petr. For the most part, he has stayed away from here, except to occasionally dredge up very old posts and tell us how wrong we are, before then leaving us on our own and in peace again. (I’m trying very hard to be tactful)
I think Petr has contributed a great deal to general knowledge about chameleons and husbandry practices, and being human, he also doesn’t know everything. I definitely respect his passion and love for chameleons as well as his intellectual curiosity to research, investigate and hypothesize/theorize. (deep breath - stay tactful) I do think that the more correct info is put out into the aether of the internet, perhaps the more the incorrect will be buried under it. Also, if by linking to his articles promotes open discussion about it here, I see it as worth making the post.

I do have to mention my take about the roaches. There have been some new keepers who mention only or primarily dubia in terms of their chameleon’s diet. I find this single feeder idea upsetting and it’s my feeling that it’s unhealthy, regardless of which feeder it is. I’m all for offering a variety of well kept healthy feeder insects. I do understand it can be more challenging to keep several different types of insect feeders when you have only one insectivore, which is why I often bring up on line vendors offering variety packs.
I want to think many of the more reputable on line vendors aren’t terribly cavalier about the diets of their roaches and other bugs and take care to provide the best feeders they can. If you are buying your feeders from Shady’s Bug O’ Rama, I think it’s safe to be suspicious about the breeding and diets of those bugs.
Like everyone else, I have definite opinions about some of the other articles, but I talk too much as it is, so will shut up now.

 

[jamest0o0]

I did hesitate and thought about posting these links as I know and remember too well some past controversies with Petr. For the most part, he has stayed away from here, except to occasionally dredge up very old posts and tell us how wrong we are, before then leaving us on our own and in peace again. (I’m trying very hard to be tactful)
I think Petr has contributed a great deal to general knowledge about chameleons and husbandry practices, and being human, he also doesn’t know everything. I definitely respect his passion and love for chameleons as well as his intellectual curiosity to research, investigate and hypothesize/theorize. (deep breath - stay tactful) I do think that the more correct info is put out into the aether of the internet, perhaps the more the incorrect will be buried under it. Also, if by linking to his articles promotes open discussion about it here, I see it as worth making the post.

I do have to mention my take about the roaches. There have been some new keepers who mention only or primarily dubia in terms of their chameleon’s diet. I find this single feeder idea upsetting and it’s my feeling that it’s unhealthy, regardless of which feeder it is. I’m all for offering a variety of well kept healthy feeder insects. I do understand it can be more challenging to keep several different types of insect feeders when you have only one insectivore, which is why I often bring up on line vendors offering variety packs.
I want to think many of the more reputable on line vendors aren’t terribly cavalier about the diets of their roaches and other bugs and take care to provide the best feeders they can. If you are buying your feeders from Shady’s Bug O’ Rama, I think it’s safe to be suspicious about the breeding and diets of those bugs.
Like everyone else, I have definite opinions about some of the other articles, but I talk too much as it is, so will shut up now.

Listen, it was Jamesy’s bug o’Rama and I swear I never gave those roaches that horse meat.

On a serious note I think Petr offers some cool information, he just likes to pop off sometimes and occasionally needs some push back .

Agreed about the feeders, I didn’t mean to say I think it’s okay to only feed roaches. I’ve always felt variety was most important. It’s just that the roaches/staple make the bulk of the calories, like even if you feed hornworms, bsfl, flies, etc a roach or even crickets will be denser in calories.

Oh and you can bet any bug dealers are feeding them heavy protein as that’s what’s going to help reproduction and growth. Can’t blame them either, just hope that it’s quality. Most are probably using dog food. I gave mine whole ingredient horse chow for protein once every couple weeks personally(for breeding purposes, not gutload).

 

[kinyonga]

@nightanole said…”Welp guess ill start breeding Madagascar bees or something”…bet importing bees from Madagascar isn’t allowed….so you will need to substitute something biologically inappropriate. We’re off to a good start.

Petr said…”In captivity, chameleons are often fed what is available, not what is biologically appropriate. Wild diets are diverse, seasonal, and behaviorally integrated—yet we offer waxworms, mealworms, or oversized roaches devoid of micronutrient balance. Worse, we omit critical prey types they evolved to consume”…we cannot feed them the exact species of insects that they eat in the wild because we cannot buy them here or import them…so it seems the only alternative at the moment is to use the insects that are available and try to balance the micronutrients, etc through supplements and gut loading and feeding the insects what is needed to give the chameleons the balance. We can’t import many of the types of vegetation and grow them here…so again, we have to come up with a good solution.

So…what can we do to make it a natural diet/habitat when there are so many obstacles? Petr?