dead cham

[Lancecham]

I recently purchased an ambilobe chameleon from a private keeper. This gentleman bought it as a baby from the Kammer's. He had for 13 months before selling it. BTW- this person is not a member of this forum.
To make a long story short, the chameleon looked good/healthy(I have a lot of chams, so I know what a good chameleon looks like.)I picked up the chameleon and brought him home(20 minute ride in an air conditioned car). The next day about 16 hours after I picked him up, he was on the bottom of the cage having seizures and died less than two hours later. So he died in about 20 hours of my care.
As soon as I saw him on the bottom of the cage(outside enclosure), I went in and looked at the temperature on the internet and it was 81 degrees. I have many cages outside and no one else was affected by the temperature. Afterall, 81 degrees isn't nothing to worry about. The cage was in partial sun and had a place to retreat to in the shade.
There was no mention of a guarantee. He did say it was healthy. The guy is basically telling me it is my problem and he won't do anything to resolve the issue.
Now my question. Is there a legal way to get the money back? Or is it worth it? Is there some law stating there is a 24 hour guarantee?

 

[Chameleonboy]

im sorry to hear that lance but i dont think you can do anything i am not a lawyer or anything but if you did not agree on any guaranty then im not shure there is much to do

 

[SoCaliSon]

Dang... I can imagine how frustrated you are.

The local temp on the internet reads 90 right now... When I came in five minutes ago... The temp gauge on my car read 100. I know that here in Cali temperatures can fluxuate a lot even within a few miles. I would recommend getting some temp gauges for the outdoor cages... I would not trust the internet temps with my chams. Unforutnatley I don't think there is any kind of legal action that could be taken... Part of the risk of buying from a private owner. Sorry man... That is a real downer.

 

[ciafardo 4]

lance thats just the person that we all would like to avoid !legal action could be taken in small claims court if its worth your time and effort you should post his name on this forum with a warning that this guy likes to rip people off

 

[Chuck G]

You could probably pursue legally but it would be tough to prove deceit on the sellers end. Financially it wouldn't be worth it.Shipping,alot of things can happen out of anyone's control. You just won't make any purchases from this guy. If this happens often,they usually are exposed. Sorry about your luck.

 

[Brian]

Im sorry to hear about your loss. If he was having seizures, you think It could have been from the big temperature change? Just a thought, my chameleons do love it outside. It seems like he was old enough to withstand the higher temps. I have heard of sudden deaths as well. As far as legal action I dont think you can, and It wouldn't be worth it anyhow, In my opinion.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Did the first person ever the cham outside? Tho the net said it was 81 it may have been hotter inside the cage or maybe less..?.. I would guess warmer. Things like this happen all the time in Vegas... People that are not used to the heat come here, spend the day outside then end up getting ill due to the heat. If I had to guess I would say something like this is to blame... If nothing was put to pen n paper I think you would be better off just to let it go. I dont think that Judge Judy would side with you :-\

 

[studiocham]

Not to bring up ugly imagery, but can you describe the seizures? Was it like drunkenness, was the cham walking and circling, was it lying on its side moving, what were the feet and tail doing, how did the eyes look- were they open? How long did it last, and did it happen more than once?

Sometimes ataxia is the result of a poisoning. Too much of even "safe" chemicals can cause it. It can take seconds up to days for the chemicals to reach a level to cause ataxia. Seizures in chameleons, so I am told, are extremely rare.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/seizures-3720/

By any chance, did you see what kind of enclosure it lived in BEFORE you got it? Was it the "rust proof" steel square mesh? Or aluminum window screen mesh? I've read that a kind of poisoning can result from a certain type of mesh.

On the other hand, temperature readings via internet have little to do with the highly specific location of an enclosure for a pet. A digital temperature gauge/probe inside the cage is necessary. I have not heard of ataxia in conjunction with overheating, but if you could describe the "seizures", it may give us some clues.

If you did not see a guarantee from the seller in writing, you do not have one. It is unlikely to be worth the time and expense of trying to take him to small claims court. Even if you wished to take it that far, you must get a necropsy and histopath done by a vet (about $200) on the unfrozen, only refrigerated cham, as that would be your professional's opinion of the cause of death. You'd need that documentation.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Seizures in chameleons, so I am told, are extremely rare.

FWIW, according to Dr. Stahl it's not rare for a chameleon to go into seizures before dying (as in, the day of).
The seizures don't even have to have anything to do with the real cause of death in those cases.

 

[studiocham]

FWIW, according to Dr. Stahl it's not rare for a chameleon to go into seizures before dying (as in, the day of).
The seizures don't even have to have anything to do with the real cause of death in those cases.

That's good to know, thank you!

The vets who saw my guys said that they don't even have seizures, chams exhibit ataxia instead. There was a firm insistence on using the word "ataxia".

I am sure they did not consult Dr Stahl. They said that true seizures are extremely rare in all reptiles. The one vet wrote a paper on seizures in snakes (Greenacre). I've not seen/read it, can't even locate it.

It does make one wonder if the deceased in this thread was even having small duration ataxia prior to death, or if it was a death-throes thing.

Have you ever seen seizures (or ataxia) just before a cham death? If so, does it look like the ataxia my guys had? I don't think I have ever seen a death seizure. Have to think back on it.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

Sorry to hear about your loss and the trouble.
Yes it's a difficult situation but unless you believe that that the animal
was poisoned by the seller before you got him.
if the seller believes it was 100% healthy or is unethically dumping the animal
(imo) The issue isn't going to be resolved in your favor


It possible, you've got an animal that seems to have enjoyed being indoors
and in a *cool* environment then system shocked by a
new environment (foreign territory) and high than normal temps
it simply may have been too much for him.
jeeze my animals upon seeing an "open sky w/ clouds"
for the first time always freaks them out.

I can also see a new acquisition trying to escape a new cage and not
pay attention to temp regulation in their reptilian panic.
going outdoors for a indoor animal can be very frightening.
while it shouldn't have happened... I can see it as a possibility

again, I'm sorry to hear about the loss.

 

[mattjillson]

Lance,

I encourage you to put up a BOI post of your transaction. Starting an electronic trail of this person's business behavior will definitely make it more difficult for this person to cut a corner on the next transaction without the buyer, doing a little homework, being unaware or some type of health gaurantee given. That 300, 400 or 500 you spent on the animal will undoubtly be paid back ten fold on this person when they can't sell any animals at market price or at all.

On a side note, any healthy animal during the summer months can take a switch from inside to outside without issue. Provided of course the temp gradients are within the acceptable spectrum for the animal (ie, highland vs lowland) and a shade spot is provided. From what you describe I'd say that animal wasn't in the best condition when you got it even if it outwardly appeared healthy, which might lend to reason why it was for sale to begin with.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

You admittedly have no health guarentee agreement with the seller , so there is no implied guarentee. Additionally , there is no clear cause of death. It would be purely coincidental that a healthy cham dies of no apparent cause after thriving in someones care for a year.

I do sympathize for your financial loss, but I'm sure you can appreciate that the former owner has an emotional loss also.

You lost cash and the seller lost the expectation that his cham was going to thrive in your care.

Its an unfortunate situation , that could happen to anyone. I'm sorry for the losses all around.