Dark colour and eyes closed

champelle

New Member
Hi everyone,
Exactly one week ago I got my first chameleon! For the first 3 days everything was well, but then on day 4 she got very 'restless' when she started shedding, climbing the sides of her cages, and surprisingly me when feeding her! Since two days she has been this dark colour (as shown in the picture), has still some little pieces of skin left, and yesterday I even caught her with her eyes closed during basking, however she would quickly open them when I would approach her cage. All day she would almost just lay sideways on her basking stick, while barely moving. Now I noticed that I dusted her feeders with the calcium with vitamin D3 instead of the one without D3 for the first three days, but quickly turned back to the regular calcium. Now since two days I've tried dusting her feeders with multi-vitamin (the only option for extra vitamin A, I am still waiting for the 'pure' vitamin A to arrive) as I read on the forum that the eyes closing and difficulty shedding might be caused by lack of vitamin A. Also I added a laying bin yesterday as I hoped maybe she was just looking for a place to lay.


Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Female veiled chameleon 'blue', got her 7 days ago. The pet store told me she was 3-4 months old.
  • Handling - once when I got her, and once when she decided to climb me.
  • Feeding - I feed her as many crickets as she can in the morning (about 6-7 crickets), gutload them with apple and sweet potato, dusted with ZooMed repticalcium (with and without D3, as explained above). For the last 2 days I dusted with Repashy supervite. When this box of crickets runs out I want to change to Dubia's (thus rotating the type of feeder). The pet store told me they only feed crickets.
  • Supplements - Reptivite calcium (one with and one with our vitamin D3) and Repashy supervite. calcium everyday, every Sunday either the D3 version or Supervite (so both 2x per month)
  • Watering - I mist her enclosure with a mister 30 seconds in the morning, 30 seconds in the evening and 10 seconds at noon. She drinks from leaves and when I try to feed (water?) her with a pipet.
  • Fecal Description - She has never been tested for parasites. Her poop has a white slimy sac, with a very dark brown 2cm long poop tail.
  • History - she was very healthy until she started shedding, and seemingly always in a good mood. Now she is just indifferent to everything except her morning meal. (and mad at my phone while taking a picture)

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - I have a 90x45x90cm exoterra screen cage, with shower curtain attached to the side and back.
  • Lighting - I have a arcadia T5HO 6% uvb (one week old) and a 40W rep tech basking lamp both resting on top of the screen mesh roof. They go on around 9am and turn of at 8:30pm.
  • Temperature - Bottom of the cage is 20 degrees Celsius, her basking spot around 29 degrees celsius. at night it drops to around 16-17 degrees celsius. (I have an analogue thermometer/hygrometer combo on the bottom of the cage, and an analogue stick thermometer I sometimes use to measure her basking spot.
  • Humidity - I have a mister, this keeps it around 35-60 during the day, when I go to sleep and wake up it is usually around 60-70 (I am thinking of using my fogger in intervals at night to raise that a bit) but I never checked at night the exact humidity. I mist 3 times a day, at 10am 30 seconds, 2pm 10 seconds and 6pm 30 seconds.
  • Plants - I use only live plants, a schleffera, Pothos, tilandsia, and a syngonium in her laying bin for coverage.
  • Placement - It is standing in the corner of my study/bedroom. There is a ventilation in the other corner of the room. Out of direct sunlight, out of sight of the window. On top of a dresser, the top is about 1,80 meters high
  • Location - I am located in the Netherlands, Utrecht.

Current Problem - She kept closing her eyes during basking (haven't seen it today so far) can't completely shed and is permanently dark coloured. (except when she sleeps)

I hope she will be better! because even though she is only one week here I really want to take good care of her!
 

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Hello Champelle

Welcome to the forum and thanks for filling out the form. So far I can´t see any irregularities and it looks like you did your homework in advanced, good job👌

How far away is the basking branch from the UVB light? It should be around 8-9 inches (20 - 23 cm).

And have you maybe tested it, if it´s working / supplying UVB? There´re already messages here from brand new UVB lights that don´t work.
You could easily test it with this https://www.dohse-terraristik.com/nl/p/37348/UVB-Quick-Test

You could also try to feed her silkworms and locusts, try to variate as much as possible. Personally got good experience with bugsonline.eu, you´ll receive the bugs within 48h.

Be careful with the extra vitamins, @kinyonga what are your thoughts about this?

You said, She drinks from leaves and when I try to feed (water?) her with a pipet. Why the feeding with the pipette if she eats and drinks? It´s an unnecessarily risk and very stressful.

The more experienced members will respond shortly.
 
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Hello Champelle

Welcome to the forum and thanks for filling out the form. So far I can´t see any irregularities and it looks like you did your homework in advanced, good job👌

How far away is the basking branch from the UVB light? It should be around 8-9 inches (20 - 23 cm).

And have you maybe tested it, if it´s working / supplying UVB? There´re already messages here from brand new UVB lights that don´t work.
You could easily test it with this https://www.dohse-terraristik.com/nl/p/37348/UVB-Quick-Test

You could also try to feed her silkworms and locusts, try to variate as much as possible. Personally got good experience with bugsonline.eu, you´ll receive the bugs within 48h.

Be careful with the extra vitamins, @kinyonga what are your thoughts about this?

The more experienced members will respond shortly.

Thank you! It's good to know I got most of my care right!
As for the UVB, I didn't test it, I just assumed it would work since it's from a reputable brand. I'll order the uv tester now and see if it's working! His branches are between 15-30cm away from the uvb. The schleffera (on the left side of the enclosure in the picture) is also being used to bask I guess, since she would hang out there a lot too. This would be straight underneath the lamp (<10cm), luckily the screen didn't seem to heat up too much to feel unpleasant on my hand, and my guess would be it won't burn the chameleon!

About the feeders: I'll order some online, my preference was the crickets, because I already use them for my frogs/gecko's! Would gut loading/care for the aforementioned feeders be the same? (a plastic tub with some air holes, egg carton and food)

EDIT: Today she seems much more alive! She is slowly walking around her enclosure again trying to eat leca balls I used to cover up the planting soil, but still very black!
 
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As for the UVB, I didn't test it, I just assumed it would work since it's from a reputable brand.
I know, you would except it, unfortunately read other stories here (can find the thread) and for just few bucks you know it for sure with the quick tester.

This would be straight underneath the lamp (<10cm), luckily the screen didn't seem to heat up too much to feel unpleasant on my hand, and my guess would be it won't burn the chameleon!
That would be too close, and would expose her with a too high UVI. When her eyes where close, was it in this spot?

About the feeders: I'll order some online, my preference was the crickets, because I already use them for my frogs/gecko's! Would gut loading/care for the aforementioned feeders be the same? (a plastic tub with some air holes, egg carton and food)
There´s definitely nothing wrong with crickets, they just need some variant. Yes and no, yes for dubia´s and locusts, no for silkworms. They need mulberry chow, which can order directly from the website. I keep them all together in one container, however the crickets could be the troublemaker in this company all together (chewing on the others).
 
I know, you would except it, unfortunately read other stories here (can find the thread) and for just few bucks you know it for sure with the quick tester.


That would be too close, and would expose her with a too high UVI. When her eyes where close, was it in this spot?
I just ordered the tester! So I'll have more answers in that regard tomorrow!
No that wasn't the spot she closes her eyes, she hasn't been up there the last 2 days at all. Would you recommend to move the UVB lamp so when she will she isn't as close? She just lays on her basking stick, 20cm below the UVB lamp. I just caught her "dozing off" again, so she is still not right, despite the vitamin effort yesterday and this morning...
 
I just ordered the tester! So I'll have more answers in that regard tomorrow!
No that wasn't the spot she closes her eyes, she hasn't been up there the last 2 days at all. Would you recommend to move the UVB lamp so when she will she isn't as close? She just lays on her basking stick, 20cm below the UVB lamp. I just caught her "dozing off" again, so she is still not right, despite the vitamin effort yesterday and this morning...
Perfect, it´s extremely easy to use and will manage itself (always willing to answer questions when needed)

Would you recommend to move the UVB lamp so when she will she isn't as close? She just lays on her basking stick, 20cm below the UVB lamp.
You could rise it bit on one side, to create the right distance. And try to put in some more branches horizontal as well vertical, the more climbing opportunities the better. However that´s no direct need, first things first...

I just caught her "dozing off" again, so she is still not right, despite the vitamin effort yesterday and this morning...
Normally no good sign, I wish could help you out, however this is out of my league right now..... hopefully some one experienced in this matter will jump in quickly (@jannb @Beman @MissSkittles)

You said, She drinks from leaves and when I try to feed (water?) her with a pipet. Why the feeding with the pipette if she eats and drinks? It´s an unnecessarily risk and very stressful.
You never answered this question? I could maybe be a vitamin overdose.
 
You never answered this question? I could maybe be a vitamin overdose.
Sorry! I missed that question! I think I read somewhere that giving water this way was a good way for her to get used to it, in case you would ever need it... Maybe I didn't formulate it right: I meant to say I sometimes give her water this way, just to make sure she does indeed drink, especially because I am afraid that something is 'missing' in her care!
 
Sorry! I missed that question! I think I read somewhere that giving water this way was a good way for her to get used to it, in case you would ever need it... Maybe I didn't formulate it right: I meant to say I sometimes give her water this way, just to make sure she does indeed drink, especially because I am afraid that something is 'missing' in her care!
If you see her drinking from the leafs, and o my you´re one lucky person, that should be more then enough. Especially if you keep checking the urate, which is perfect as you described, then there´s no need for extra water supplying by a pipette. Most of us will never see their chameleon drink, because in general they´re shy drinkers. As long as you keep checking the indicators (urate colour and no sunking eyes) , you should be fine. I see you are already doubting a fogger, I also use one together with a mister, only at night, without a dripper and got no dehydration problems so far.

They keep us on our toes ;)
 
hahaha yes they do!! I think (at least from what I’ve read) that she is a very friendly chameleon, from day 1 she would accept hand fed crickets andragogie from the pipette like a little baby lamand she never hissed at me! I was surprised to see how quickly you can bond with them :)

For the humidity I’ll leave it like this for now as it seems fine! I have a fogger at hand should I need one!
I really hope she is going to be alright...
 
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For the humidity I’ll leave it like this for now as it seems fine! I have a fogger at hand should I need one!
If you have one and she has favourite sleeping spot, I personally would use it and aim it at her sleeping spot for several hours, 15 min sessions per hour, during the night. Then you play completely safe regarding hydration.

I was surprised to see how quickly you can bond with them
I know, crazy isn´t it 😊

I really hope she is going to be alright...
Lets hope so, because the most important question isn´t answered yet 🤞
I think (at least from what I’ve read) that she is a very friendly chameleon
Sounds like it and she´s beautiful will become even more beautiful after each shed, in the beginning.
 
Welcome to the forum @champelle !

Can you please post a photo of her on something like your hand or a ruler so I can see her size?

You said..." Since two days she has been this dark colour (as shown in the picture), has still some little pieces of skin left, and yesterday I even caught her with her eyes closed during basking, however she would quickly open them when I would approach her cage. All day she would almost just lay sideways on her basking stick, while barely moving"...she shouldn't be shutting her eyes during the daytime. Laying sideways would mean she's trying to warm up as would the darker colors but you basking temperature is actually too warm. 80F is what it should be. Could your thermometer be wrong?

You said...." Now I noticed that I dusted her feeders with the calcium with vitamin D3 instead of the one without D3 for the first three days, but quickly turned back to the regular calcium" 3 days won't have mattered. You do have to be careful with D3 from supplements because they're fat soluble and can build up in the system and lead to health issues such as MBD. D3 produced from exposure to the UVB should not build up as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the light.

You said..."Now since two days I've tried dusting her feeders with multi-vitamin (the only option for extra vitamin A"...you have to be careful with prEformed vitamin A since its fat soluble. Also it's questionable as to whether all/any chameleons can use the prOformed vitamin A but it doesn't build up in the system so it's safe.

You said..." I am still waiting for the 'pure' vitamin A to arrive) as I read on the forum that the eyes closing and difficulty shedding might be caused by lack of vitamin A"...as I've said...you have to be very careful of preformed vitamin A. It needs to be in balance with the D3 in the chameleon's system.

You said..."Also I added a laying bin yesterday as I hoped maybe she was just looking for a place to lay"...good to be prepared...but she's not showing her big girl colors yet.

Do you feed her every day now? You will soon want to start cutting her back slowly ...first to every second day, then cut down the amount of food to 4 or 5 crickets (or other insects, same calories) and feed her only two or 3 days a week so she won't produce large clutches. Basking temperature is also important in this.
 
@champelle I am going to go through you help form with bold text replies, please let me know any questions you have.


Now I noticed that I dusted her feeders with the calcium with vitamin D3 instead of the one without D3 for the first three days, but quickly turned back to the regular calcium. Now since two days I've tried dusting her feeders with multi-vitamin (the only option for extra vitamin A, I am still waiting for the 'pure' vitamin A to arrive) as I read on the forum that the eyes closing and difficulty shedding might be caused by lack of vitamin A. Also I added a laying bin yesterday as I hoped maybe she was just looking for a place to lay. Ok your overdoing it with fat soluble supplements. And she is young so a little of too much is going to make a big impact on her... plus your using the wrong supplements for her.


Chameleon Info:

  • Your Chameleon - Female veiled chameleon 'blue', got her 7 days ago. The pet store told me she was 3-4 months old. Looks about that age based on her size.
  • Handling - once when I got her, and once when she decided to climb me.
  • Feeding - I feed her as many crickets as she can in the morning (about 6-7 crickets), gutload them with apple and sweet potato, dusted with ZooMed repticalcium (with and without D3, as explained above). For the last 2 days I dusted with Repashy supervite. When this box of crickets runs out I want to change to Dubia's (thus rotating the type of feeder). The pet store told me they only feed crickets. Make sure your using small feeders so they are size appropriate for what she can eat at this age. You want to expand your gutload to include leafy greens from the image below. I will go into supplements in the next section.
  • Supplements - Reptivite calcium (one with and one with our vitamin D3) and Repashy supervite. calcium everyday, every Sunday either the D3 version or Supervite (so both 2x per month) Here is the issue... Reptivite is actually a multivitamin with or without D3. But it has vitamin A in it which is fat soluble. This one in the D3 version should only be given 2 times a month on say the 1st and the 15th. You need a plain calcium no d3 for all other feedings. Zoomed makes a calcium without D3 and I personally use the repashy Supercal NoD and really like it. You will return the repashy supervite and the reptivite without D3. Do not give her any more of the current supplements you have you have you are putting her into overdose on vitamin A. You should wait 3-4 weeks before giving her another dose of the reptivite with D3 so her body can clear the excess you have given her.
  • Watering - I mist her enclosure with a mister 30 seconds in the morning, 30 seconds in the evening and 10 seconds at noon. She drinks from leaves and when I try to feed (water?) her with a pipet. Do not water with a pipet. This is not natural for them and a good way to make her aspirate the water. You need to add a dripper for her. A plastic solo cup with a tiny pin hole in the bottle set on top of the cage dripping down on plants so she has access to consistent moving water.
  • Fecal Description - She has never been tested for parasites. Her poop has a white slimy sac, with a very dark brown 2cm long poop tail. Fecals are always a good idea to ensure there is not a parasite issue.
  • History - she was very healthy until she started shedding, and seemingly always in a good mood. Now she is just indifferent to everything except her morning meal. (and mad at my phone while taking a picture)

Cage Info:

  • Cage Type - I have a 90x45x90cm exoterra screen cage, with shower curtain attached to the side and back.
  • Lighting - I have a arcadia T5HO 6% uvb (one week old) and a 40W rep tech basking lamp both resting on top of the screen mesh roof. They go on around 9am and turn of at 8:30pm. Make sure there is a distance of 8-9 inches from the top screen to the branch below the UVB for the correct UVI level. Closer then that will be quite strong.
  • Temperature - Bottom of the cage is 20 degrees Celsius, her basking spot around 29 degrees celsius. at night it drops to around 16-17 degrees celsius. (I have an analogue thermometer/hygrometer combo on the bottom of the cage, and an analogue stick thermometer I sometimes use to measure her basking spot. Basking spot is too hot. You want it to sit at 26-27C Max. Females clutch size is based on temps and feeding amounts so we keep their basking spots cooler.
  • Humidity - I have a mister, this keeps it around 35-60 during the day, when I go to sleep and wake up it is usually around 60-70 (I am thinking of using my fogger in intervals at night to raise that a bit) but I never checked at night the exact humidity. I mist 3 times a day, at 10am 30 seconds, 2pm 10 seconds and 6pm 30 seconds. So daytime humidity your looking for 25-50max. Nightime it can be up to 100% fogging with airflow and cool temps lower then 20C.
  • Plants - I use only live plants, a schleffera, Pothos, tilandsia, and a syngonium in her laying bin for coverage.
  • Placement - It is standing in the corner of my study/bedroom. There is a ventilation in the other corner of the room. Out of direct sunlight, out of sight of the window. On top of a dresser, the top is about 1,80 meters high
  • Location - I am located in the Netherlands, Utrecht.

Current Problem - She kept closing her eyes during basking (haven't seen it today so far) can't completely shed and is permanently dark coloured. (except when she sleeps)

I hope she will be better! because even though she is only one week here I really want to take good care of her! See feedback above on supplements. This is the issue here I am betting.

Additional info for female care:

As she matures you will have to start cutting back her food. By about 6 months she should be getting about 5-8 small feeders each day. At about 7 months you want to slowly reduce by cutting down feeder amounts so that she is on a feeding schedule of 3 days a week with 3 feeders. You want them to be on this schedule by the time they are 9-10 months old.


You will not ever want basking to be over 78-80 for her. Very important for females because as she ages she needs this temp no higher at basking to help control the amount of eggs she produces.

A lay bin should be added as a permanent fixture by the time they are 6 months old so they get used to it and it does not cause stress.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/laying-bin-set-up-educational-video.77225/


chameleon-gutload.jpg
chameleon-food(1).jpg
laybin graphic.jpg
 
she shouldn't be shutting her eyes during the daytime. Laying sideways would mean she's trying to warm up as would the darker colors but you basking temperature is actually too warm. 80F is what it should be. Could your thermometer be wrong?
I’ll see if I can get hands on another thermometer. This one does however seem to match with the one I have in a different vivarium...



as I've said...you have to be very careful of preformed vitamin A. It needs to be in balance with the D3 in the chameleon's system.
I won’t feed it to her then, and stick to calcium only for now!

thank you for the advice!

for the size see the photo, taken when I put her in her new house 7 days ago: (excuse my gross callused hands, I’m a rower hahah)
 

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I’ll see if I can get hands on another thermometer. This one does however seem to match with the one I have in a different vivarium...




I won’t feed it to her then, and stick to calcium only for now!

thank you for the advice!
Make sure you buy the phos free calcium without D3.
 
Zoomed makes a calcium without D3 and I personally use the repashy Supercal NoD and really like it. You will return the repashy supervite and the reptivite without D3. Do not give her any more of the current supplements you have you have you are putting her into overdose on vitamin A.
I will definitely trust you here on your judgement! I will get the repashy supercal noD and use that for the next 28 days! What vitamin supplement would you recommend to use after this ‘cleansing period’?

As for the gutloading, I’ll add in the leafy greens. I think the size of feeders is good for now, they are a bit smaller than the space between her eyes (size 5 crickets)


Basking spot is too hot. You want it to sit at 26-27C Max. Females clutch size is based on
I’ll move the basking light a bit higher, to get it around 25C! For the humidity I’ll set my digger on intervals during the night as recommended by @Sonny13
 
I will definitely trust you here on your judgement! I will get the repashy supercal noD and use that for the next 28 days! What vitamin supplement would you recommend to use after this ‘cleansing period’?
You can continue with the reptivite with D3 or switch to repashy calcium plus LoD. Either of these provide multivitamins, Vitamin A, and D3. Either of these would be used on the at one feeding every other week. So your total use of them is 2 times in a 4 week period.
 
You can continue with the reptivite with D3 or switch to repashy calcium plus LoD. Either of these provide multivitamins, Vitamin A, and D3. Either of these would be used on the at one feeding every other week. So your total use of them is 2 times in a 4 week period.
Ahhh check! Thank you for the clarification! I’ll get hands on pure calcium, untill then I won’t dust the feeders at all to prevent mineral overdose.
Improve the gutloading with leafy greens and vary more in feeders, check the uvb output of my lamp, lower the basking temperature and raise the humidity at night with my fogger! That should sum up my actions now! I’ll keep everyone in touch, thanks for all the help so far!
 
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