D3 & Organ Failure

[Albula]

Has anyone here in this forum been to the vet or had a reported case of organ failure due to being over supplemented with d3? Understand the general consensus is: Calcium only everyday, Calcium w/d3 and multi-vitamin twice a month.

I've read someone else has been doing Calcium w/d3 everyday for decades with no problems and I look at FLCHAMS website and when they sell a kit, it includes Calcium W/D3 & Reptivite only. It doesn't come with just plain Calcium. I'm a minimalist, and I just don't like buying stuff I don't need. Thanks

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

Yes, you have it right D3 only 2x monthly. People that have many years of experience may change the supplements, but the regiment you have is tried and true.

 

[pigglett79]

Many Many problems from overdosing a fat soluble vitamins such as D3, you could do a Google search. Im going to bed shortly so cant provide articles at the moment. It can be easy to do research, you may need a library, but I only trust true research articles, not just opinion. Look for real articles with materials and methods, an abstract, resources etc, true research. Then you will find what you are looking for.

Edit: However, according to several research articles, the powdered D3 does not provide near the endogenous level of D3 metabolites as UVB light. This is an area of interest for me.

 

[pigglett79]

ok, cant resist, here are a few articles to peak your interest regarding D3 in reptiles. If you cant get them by just doing a Google search, then you may need a library. I get most of my articles through my school library.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=5ZH7SqDcjZRzaRT0ot1kPQ&bvm=bv.53899372,d.eWU

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...GDTfU3PeWYrXcLGQw&sig2=nIKgQmznIlLCpUEpocgmIQ

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...CfFY9FRDkrI8ge7jQ&sig2=uaW8n8jTFOCdl0gb4KUY1A

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...dCgLXDB1r4opBTF9w&sig2=h644VCFxNN09JElPj3G12A

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...9V0nyEKK16T51kJhA&sig2=4i0-rVwXtJHYPDHVBeGe_w

 

[Albula]

Thanks for the help. It is better to be safe than sorry. I'm just going to order the plain calcium. Got the Calcium w/d3 from a petshop employee when I went to get supplementation for my bearded dragon and I recently ordered Reptivite WO/D3 for my chameleon. So having all these supplements for my chameleon(Plain Calcium, Calcium w/D3, Reptivite Wo/D3) What supplements and schedule would you use for the bearded dragon I have?(Feeding Crickets) Thanks

 

[pigglett79]

The supplement schedule will depend on how well and with what you are gutloading, how much natural sun they are getting, prey variety etc. I do not use much D3, even for my bearded dragon, but I gutload very well, offer 4-5 different feeders at a time, use high output UVb bulbs, and get them several hours of natural sun per week. In the winter they get less sun and I do increase the D3 a little bit. Maybe once a month for my chameleons and a few times a month for my bearded dragon.

 

[fluxlizard]

I've read someone else has been doing Calcium w/d3 everyday for decades with no problems

MIGHT have been me, so I feel like I need to accept some responsibility and chime in here and say I did it for about a decade with no apparant problems,

BUT-

Only about half the decade was year round d3. The other half I started keeping my lizards outside in the summer where they were only given plain calcium. So they got 5 months of a break from d3 every year.

AND

Although I was surrounded by some excellent veterinarians (my father taught and did research at a vet school, some of his students and collegues are very well known reptile vets today) I did not do things like bloodwork and necropsies were casual- if it wasn't apparant by the naked eye, I didn't worry about it. Not sure if that is because the tools weren't available yet (one of my iguanas was the first ever operated on at that university) or if my father was teaching me what I could do on my own. But it was what it was. There are certainly better tools to evaluate husbandry today. BUT- in the end average lifespan and success rate of reproduction are still pretty good measures of husbandry regardless of the nitty gritty details behind them, and by those standards my animals stood up just fine compared to any out there except those claiming extraordinary lifespans like female veileds who live 8 years or whatever.

AND

Indoors I used very poor lighting most of the time- either vitalites or chroma 50s which the guy at the lighting store had told me were the same thing as vitalites as far as spectrum output. They aren't - they don't put out UVB and vitalites even put out very little. So most of the time indoors I was keeping and breeding relying only on vit d3, not full spectrum lighting in addition.

PLUS-

I don't recommend or do this anymore. Live and learn- it is safer to rely on good lighting available nowadays rather than dietary d3. Although I do use a little more for babies indoors than most here on the forums as well as a little more multivitamin than most here on the forums- it prevents problems like crooked casks, and helps prevent eye infections and tongue problems, etc.

BOTTOM LINE

PLEASE nobody take my recent comments on the forums and misinterpret them as it being a safe and great idea to use D3 at every dusting. I only bring my experience up to argue that there is probably a wider margin of safety using these products vs the absolute minimal use that is sometimes advocated, which I consider not a great idea for the average hobbyiest because I believe leads to some of the problems brought up again and again on the forums. I don't bring up that experience to encourage people to do what I did- I DO NOT believe what I did is the best thing to do- especially under modern lighting and with today's technologies and advancement in veterinary care.

 

[Albula]

Bought the bearded dragon as an adult from the manager of a big box retail pet store. It was one of his personal pets. He told me that I should just get about 50 crickets at a pet store once a week and then dump them all into his cage, so I wouldn't have to run to the pet store more than once a week. He also told me to give him salad everyday(he showed me some of the small premix bags of broccoli, cauliflower, carrots) and that was all that was needed along with dusting the crickets with calcium. He came with everything including lights(reptiglo 10.0 and a 75 watt basking bulb)

 

[Albula]

Understand the purpose of gutloading for a chameleon because some of them only eat insects, but what is the purpose of gutloading for a bearded dragon? If I was to gutload for my bearded dragon, Wouldn't it probably be with the same thing he gets everyday in his salad? Also offering him 4 or 5 different feeders, wouldn't that give him the option of becoming picky? He loves crickets, he goes wild when he sees me dusting them before I put them in his cage. Thanks

 

[fluxlizard]

Well, that is one reason why bearded dragons are easier than chameleons, but- it is still much better for your dragon to be fed gutloaded insects. Everything you put into your lizard is taken into the balance. The more good stuff, the better off your lizard will be.