Cross-Breeding?

[Julirs]

One could easily say a Furcifer pardalis is a Furcifer pardalis.

Yes-one could say that. But what I am trying, I guess poorly, to say is that translucense in Veileds is a genetic mutation where Panthers have coloration differences based on where they are found.

Selectively breeding Veileds to be translucent is easy-it is a co-dominant gene-so it is a genetics game. It is a gene mutation.

Breeding Panthers where we do not have alot of genetic information is not a genetics game, or it is not one we understand. I find it amazing that geographic location has created these different locales. But we humans love to mess with nature with sometimes not favorable results.

 

[sandrachameleon]

But we humans love to mess with nature with sometimes not favorable results.

very very true
I'd go as far as to say OFTEN with less than favourable results.
But also, sometimes with very good results indeed.

 

[Julirs]

very very true
I'd go as far as to say OFTEN with less than favourable results.
But also, sometimes with very good results indeed.

Very true. I don't have too much of an issue with people breeding crosses beyond the intentional or unintentional misrepresentation of locale.

The fun thing about mutations such as translucents, is that no one here will ever know exactly why the genetic mutation happened-but someone in the future may. Selective adaptation is fascinating, too bad that no one will survive the hundreds or thousands or even more years it takes these things to happen! I hope we do not completely eradicate Madagascar before we can get at least some answers. I imagine that the "purist" movement will take on an even greater dimension the more land in Maddy is destroyed.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Elizadolots & sandra,

Comparing the captive breeding strategies of Ch. calyptratus to that of F. pardalis is comparing apples to oranges.

First, F. pardalis exhibits a very wide range of variations that are highly distinctive based on the geographic location they were captured. The typical repertoire of colorations and patterns from many locales are well documented and an experienced individual can tell the locality of males with a reasonable degree of certainty as well as pick out males likely to be hybrids.

While it has been suggested that there may be some variation in the coloration, pattern and/or morphology of Ch. calyptratus in the wild, any variation associated with geographic origin has never been outlined or explained and we have no information on how distinct different locales might be or if they can be distinguished and differentiated from each other. Further, there is no available information on the locale origins of any of the captive bloodlines that I am aware of, and as far as we know, the variation we see in captivity is simply the result of individual variation that could be seen within a single population rather than between distinct populations.

With regard to translucent Veileds, this is an example of a few odd individuals that were imported and were selectively bred to maintain a trait that was found in WC animals. Because the trait is codominant, it is easily propogated, it can be identified in any individual who carries it and thus can't be accidentally mixed into bloodlines that you do not want to introduce it to. The same can not be true of locale specific colorations in F. pardalis because these colorations and patterns are polymorphic, the traits are not exhibited in females and many of the individual traits which combine to create the color patterns of pure locales may be recessive in males meaning that they would not be always expressed and thus not able to be identified. The result is that as soon as you cross locales in F. pardalis, there is absolutely no way to ever return those offspring of their progeny to a pure locale state and it is easy to inadvertently introduce un-pure lines into lines you wanted to keep pure. This is not the case with translucent Veileds and since we have no information on locale variations in Veileds or bloodline origins, there is no purity to strive to maintain.

As a result, the criticism of breeders of Ch. calyptratus not taking the care in breeding that is expected of F. pardalis breeders is absurd.

Chris

 

[sandrachameleon]

As a result, the criticism of breeders of Ch. calyptratus not taking the care in breeding that is expected of F. pardalis breeders is absurd.

I dont recall anyone ever saying such a thing? Certainly I did not, and your post was directed at me. Perhaps in error?

"F. pardalis exhibits a very wide range of variations that are highly distinctive based on the geographic location they were captured. "

Yes, obviously. But they are still F Pardalis, regardless. THAT was my point, just that, which perhaps you misunderstood to mean more.

While it has been suggested that there may be some variation in the coloration, pattern and/or morphology of Ch. calyptratus in the wild, any variation associated with geographic origin has never been outlined or explained and we have no information on how distinct different locales might be or if they can be distinguished and differentiated from each other.

Yes, true. We dont yet know.

[...]The result is that as soon as you cross locales in F. pardalis, there is absolutely no way to ever return those offspring of their progeny to a pure locale state

Who cares? who said this was necessary, desireable or required? Certainly I dont think so. Pet chameleons have nothing to do with maintaining things the same as what is in nature. There is room for both crosses AND "pure" animals in this hobby, unless you are snobby. (amusing myself with the rhyme, since this thead has, as expected, started to bring out the negativities in some)

and it is easy to inadvertently introduce un-pure lines into lines you wanted to keep pure.

Easy to do on purpose. But anyone seriously wanting to maintain a "pure" line isnt going to accidentally introduce a cross.

If one really cares about the chameleons being maintained in their nature, pure, un-fiddled state - protect their environment in the wild. Little in captivity is really the same.

 

[warpdrive]

... and it is easy to inadvertently introduce un-pure lines into lines you wanted to keep pure.

Chris

Sadly no Chris, in this day and age of panther breeding it is quite hard not to get CBB babies of anything you want to breed.
Need a sambava female? No problem, there are about 6 or 7 well respected breeders that can give you a pure female.
Need a nosy be? No problem once again as you can get a pure nosy female from plenty of respected breeders.

There is no need to ever take a chance on buying a female panther from anyone but a well respected breeder...and no respected breeder would ever buy from a nobody, so there is never a worry of mixing in an un pure blood line into your project.

This is called propaganda folks.
Things people make up out of thin air so you could or should listen to them and do like them.
Just watch how they will now spin this in another direction...also falsely.
I've seen this for a year folks. Its not gona end.

Harry

 

[Julirs]

Sadly no Chris, in this day and age of panther breeding it is quite hard not to get CBB babies of anything you want to breed.
Need a sambava female? No problem, there are about 6 or 7 well respected breeders that can give you a pure female.
Need a nosy be? No problem once again as you can get a pure nosy female from plenty of respected breeders.

There is no need to ever take a chance on buying a female panther from anyone but a well respected breeder...and no respected breeder would ever buy from a nobody, so there is never a worry of mixing in an un pure blood line into your project.

This is called propaganda folks.
Things people make up out of thin air so you could or should listen to them and do like them.
Just watch how they will now spin this in another direction...also falsely.
I've seen this for a year folks. Its not gona end.

Harry

I really do not mean this to sound as nasty as it is going to, but what perfect world do you live in?

 

[warpdrive]

I really do not mean this to sound as nasty as it is going to, but what perfect world do you live in?

That's just it. I don't live in a perfect world.
That's why I would never take a "chance" on something so important as a breeding project.
I would pay though my nose the amount needed to get what I want, and I would get what I pay for.
The truth is, the real breeders do the same. They can't afford to take chances.

When buying a female, I wanted to know who the grand sire and dame was.
I'm paying for history and good breeding stock.
Even with my male I know his parents and a small amount of info beyond.

I might not ever breed them. But if I do, I at least know that I'm not taking a huge risk at what my female's background is, never mind have to "pry" that it is the right type of female.
Mistakes do happen, but you don't have to take chances, and mistakes are not the crosses fault.

Harry

 

[Elizadolots]

Which is why the registry idea is so important for breeders trying to maintain purity.

 

[warpdrive]

Which is why the registry idea is so important for breeders trying to maintain purity.

What my point is, there is no need because you wouldn't or shouldn't buy from someone you don't trust in the first place.
In other words, you get what you par for.
Purity is not in jeopardy at this stage of the game. That's the falsehood that needs to be pointed out.


Harry

 

[Chris Anderson]

Sandra - My comments stemmed from statements you and Elizdalots made but weren't necessarily a direct reflection of either your point of view, just summarizing my thoughts on the more general comparison. Sorry if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth, that wasn't my intention.

But they are still F Pardalis, regardless. THAT was my point, just that, which perhaps you misunderstood to mean more.[...]Who cares? who said this was necessary, desireable or required? Certainly I dont think so. Pet chameleons have nothing to do with maintaining things the same as what is in nature. There is room for both crosses AND "pure" animals in this hobby, unless you are snobby. (amusing myself with the rhyme, since this thead has, as expected, started to bring out the negativities in some)

I don't disagree that there is a place for pure locale and locale hybrids in the hobby, I'm simply saying that underplaying the ease by which hybrids could legitimately enter an attempt at producing a pure line definitely does no justice to trying to keep pure locality lines available. As I said, producing hybrids is no problem, maintaining pure locales takes more effort which is why I think care should be made to do it.

Sadly no Chris, in this day and age of panther breeding it is quite hard not to get CBB babies of anything you want to breed.
Need a sambava female? No problem, there are about 6 or 7 well respected breeders that can give you a pure female.
Need a nosy be? No problem once again as you can get a pure nosy female from plenty of respected breeders.

There is no need to ever take a chance on buying a female panther from anyone but a well respected breeder...and no respected breeder would ever buy from a nobody, so there is never a worry of mixing in an un pure blood line into your project.

This is called propaganda folks.
Things people make up out of thin air so you could or should listen to them and do like them.
Just watch how they will now spin this in another direction...also falsely.
I've seen this for a year folks. Its not gona end.

Harry

Harry - I have personally unpacked shipments from Madagascar with a number of the most respected breeders in the country and helped pick through shipments of animals that were clearly mislabeled in an attempt to figure out what they had. I have personally unpacked shipments with these same breeders that appeared to be pure locales as labeled only to have resultant offspring prove that the females were not what they were supposed to be. I have personally helped pack up animals from madagascar shipments to send to other top breeders around the country. I have personally been to an exporter's facility in Madagascar and seen how they keep their F. pardalis that they send out as known locales. Let me tell you, anyone who ever deals with WC specimens or purchases from a breeder who deals with WC specimen most definitely could easily add an animal to their lines that was not as labeled or even a hybrid.

You can absolutely go to breeders with locale proven females and purchase pure animals but even some of the most respected breeders do not always only offer animals from proven locale female. If you do go the route of a breeder with a proven locale female, you are then limited to bloodlines that everyone is working with, not your own lines. That is fine for many but others don't want to have the same blood everyone else is trying to work with.

Many smaller breeders (there are a lot of them on this forum) purchase blood from other smaller breeders they are friends with and it is easy for these individuals to inadvertently have a mislabeled animal in their bloodlines.

As much as you want to deny the ease by which mislabeled or hybrid animals can mistakenly enter into attempts to breed pure locales, you are wrong. I've personally seen it at every level and there are people here who are prime examples.

Chris

 

[Monties1982]

On the topic of panther locales, I've often wondered why the different locales of panthers aren't considered seperate subspecies. In the wild, they don't interbreed because of geographic isolation from each other, which from what I understand is the definition of what makes seperate populations of the same species seperate subspecies, so what makes the different locales of panthers not seperate subspecies?

 

[Olimpia]

What my point is, there is no need because you wouldn't or shouldn't buy from someone you don't trust in the first place.
In other words, you get what you par for.
Purity is not in jeopardy at this stage of the game. That's the falsehood that needs to be pointed out.


Harry

I agree completely.

blah. But I'm tired of writing the same argument.

 

[Chris Anderson]

On the topic of panther locales, I've often wondered why the different locales of panthers aren't considered seperate subspecies. In the wild, they don't interbreed because of geographic isolation from each other, which from what I understand is the definition of what makes seperate populations of the same species seperate subspecies, so what makes the different locales of panthers not seperate subspecies?

The explanation has a number of points but I'll highlight two in particular.

First, there are geographic barriers that limit the exchange of genes between many of the locales but there is still limited genetic exchange between them. Between many of the locales, you can't draw a line and say this is the barrier. Many of the locales are a continuum with plateaus, rivers, etc., that limit the gene flow but there is a certain degree of gene flow between them, even though there are obvious differences in gene frequencies in the different areas. This gene flow is considerably lower between island locales, but there are probably the occasional individual that rafts to the adjacent island or mainland during storms.

Secondly, the subspecies designation is heavily debated among scientist. The growing trend of thought is that if two "subspecies" are distinct enough to warrant distinction at a taxonomic level, they should be each be considered their own species. This is in line with the more recent phylogenetic species concept.

In my opinion, these locales are evolving toward distinct taxonomic status as their gene frequencies are clearly diverging, but they aren't there yet.

Chris

 

[warpdrive]

Chris,

I'm now not going to go into breeding ethics with you because we could agree or disagree.
But in todays game, regardless of the limited bloodlines to work with, you don't need to ever touch a WC female anything.
There is just little need.

If you're willing to pay, and maybe play the waiting game, anyone can start a good project with proven lines by now.
You don't have to take the chances of the past.
You're right though about limited blood lines to work with...its sadly like that with other animals too.
Until pure breeders stop breeding, I'm not gona worry too much.

With that said, once again, no pure breeder worth his/her rep will just by a "chance" female at this time.
Its just not woth it.

Harry

 

[Elizadolots]

What my point is, there is no need because you wouldn't or shouldn't buy from someone you don't trust in the first place.
In other words, you get what you par for.
Purity is not in jeopardy at this stage of the game. That's the falsehood that needs to be pointed out.


Harry

This was in reference to my suggestion a registry is important. I stand by the idea it is because a registry indicates confidence and provides confidence.

It's certainly true that the very knowledgeable among you know whom to trust and whom not to trust. Obviously,those just interested in a pet don't need to be as concerned about the bloodlines, but there is always an in between group that will present itself as valid and having good blood line but isn't really that pure. The existence of a registry provides the buyer some security that s/he is buying a solid animal. It provides the seller the ability to assure his/her customers that this isn't one of the much read about scams.

 

[Chris Anderson]

But in todays game, regardless of the limited bloodlines to work with, you don't need to ever touch a WC female anything.
There is just little need.[...]You're right though about limited blood lines to work with[...]Until pure breeders stop breeding, I'm not gona worry too much.[...]With that said, once again, no pure breeder worth his/her rep will just by a "chance" female at this time.
Its just not woth it.

And where are these breeders going to get new bloodlines so that the available blood doesn't decrease further? How are these breeders going to continue to be able to provide some of these locales, particularly the rarer ones where bloodlines are very limited? The answer is they have to take their chances with WC animals and hope that it pans out for them, at one point or another. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes individuals in a resulting clutch may look relatively pure while other animals in the clutch reveal the truth (see Julie's photos above). Most breeders don't hold back an entire clutch to 6 months in age to verify the purity of a female and at the same time not continue to try to breed her while they wait for a clutch to incubate, hatch and grow to adult coloration. There is plenty of room for legitimate breeders to inadvertently produce hybrid locales.

Chris

 

[warpdrive]

This was in reference to my suggestion a registry is important. I stand by the idea it is because a registry indicates confidence and provides confidence.

It's certainly true that the very knowledgeable among you know whom to trust and whom not to trust. Obviously,those just interested in a pet don't need to be as concerned about the bloodlines, but there is always an in between group that will present itself as valid and having good blood line but isn't really that pure. The existence of a registry provides the buyer some security that s/he is buying a solid animal. It provides the seller the ability to assure his/her customers that this isn't one of the much read about scams.

What you are looking for already exists. Its called site sponsors.
They are breeders who work hard in producing quality animals at a quality price.
Don't expect a $50 baby.
In fact expect to pay a lot if you do want quality breeders.

It still comes back to the saying, you get what you pay for.
You could buy a $150 ambilobe or a $250 one.
Both are nice. But do you think the two are the same?

Harry

 

[Elizadolots]

Again...an objective registry provides information and support.

While it's fine for you--as someone who's been doing this for awhile--to say "buy from those you trust" because you're probably close friends with most of the good breeders in this country, when it comes to someone new to the idea of breeding true locales, they won't have that "trust". That's where the potential for bad things happening exists.

 

[warpdrive]

Again...an objective registry provides information and support.

While it's fine for you--as someone who's been doing this for awhile--to say "buy from those you trust" because you're probably close friends with most of the good breeders in this country, when it comes to someone new to the idea of breeding true locales, they won't have that "trust". That's where the potential for bad things happening exists.

Once again, it won't effect you. Because the ones you would be buying off of are of a whole different caliber of breeders.
If you wanted to start your own project, would you start off with WC female or a $75 female from some nobody?

The problem doesn't exist at this time.

Harry