Critical Thinking: Should We Give Chameleons Water Cups?

[DeremensisBlue]

Hey all! This thread is the Discussion tab for a blog entry on chameleons being hydrated via water cups. To read the blog and listen to the podcast you can click on the "Blog entry" tab at the top of this blog of click here. Critical Thinking: Should We Give Chameleons Water Cups?. And then come back here to share your thoughts.

 

[nightanole]

Chameleons technically have the same tongue(with a few modifications) as the anole,iguana,water dragon, bearded dragon. All of these creatures drink out of a bowl the same way.

Spray any of these creatures in the face and they will start drinking.

All of these creatures have recommendations for a shallow drinking bowl that should be changed regularly.

I have witnessed all of these creatures drink out of a bowl with no training.

I have witnessed all of these creatures drink from "leaves/glass" that have been sprayed with water.

I have never had any of these creatures with "just" a bowl or "just" misting.

Based on experience the bowl drinkers only drink a few times per week. While the misters drink several times a day.

I dont believe one method is more sanitary than another. Both methods can end up with food/feces in the drink. Both methods can end up with algae/bacteria if exposed to light and dispensing item is not cleaned on the regular.

 

[kinyonga]

In the old days, when I first started keeping chameleons, I put shallow water dishes in the cages with the intent of them being for the insects more than the chameleons. I cleaned them daily. Then people started saying don’t use water dishes in their cages for all the reasons they still say.…so I stopped. Since then I have searched repeatedly to see if I can find any evidence of them drinking from puddles, areas where water collected in the wild and haven’t found any….but I’m still not a firm believer that using a water container wouldn’t be ok if it’s kept very clean.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

In the old days, when I first started keeping chameleons, I put shallow water dishes in the cages with the intent of them being for the insects more than the chameleons. I cleaned them daily. Then people started saying don’t use water dishes in their cages for all the reasons they still say.…so I stopped. Since then I have searched repeatedly to see if I can find any evidence of them drinking from puddles, areas where water collected in the wild and haven’t found any….but I’m still not a firm believer that using a water container wouldn’t be ok if it’s kept very clean.

I have seen a picture of them drinking from a puddle. I think the community has gotten so wrapped up in saying that they can't recognize still water that when someone shows a picture of them drinking from a cup it is seen as revolutionary. Chameleons are survivors and they can adapt. So it really isn't mind blowing that they would learn that the surface of water is the same thing as the surface of dew on the leaves. Especially Veiled and Panthers that are much higher on the intelligence scale and the ability to adapt. But there is a very good reason why there are few records of them drinking from puddles in the wild. Puddles happen during the rainy season when there is no lack of rain and moisture. So there isn't really the need to go to the ground to find water. I have not been to a chameleon area during the dry season, but talking with people that have, there are not random puddles available. So chameleons would have to find a different way to survive the dry season. I think there is an obvious reason why we do not have much documentation of chameleons on the ground drinking from puddles. Just like swimming. We have record of it, but would not consider it a standard part of the ideal husbandry conditions.

The reason why cup drinking has risen to the level of having to discuss it is because it is being presented as being the better way to hydrate and that misting is dangerous. And so it is important that we take a look at the different aspects of this technique to understand what it is and what it can be. If it was just another hydration technique that some people liked it would not be worth talking about. If their chameleons are hydrated then mission accomplished. But when it is presented with misinformation about misting and hydration in general then it becomes worth having a resource to send people who are interested in another viewpoint.

 

[BryanP]

I got banned from a subreddit for saying that their recommendation to use a water glass was bull crap but now you're saying I might be!?

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I got banned from a subreddit for saying that their recommendation to use a water glass was bull crap but now you're saying I might be!?

It is a very complicated subject. It wouldn't do the chameleon community justice to give blanket statements and no explanation. That is why podcasts are such a great medium. You can really dive into a subject. I think that listening to the episode might answer your question. I do not believe offering a cup of water is a technique we should be learning how to use because it is not part of their ideal day in nature and we should be spending our time focusing on facilitating that environment. But we have to evaluate husbandry techniques fairly. And the fact is that you can teach some chameleons to drink from a cup of water. Since we are looking for the best way to take care of our chameleon it is worth it to think of each method in the best light and then decide which way we want to go.

That said, evaluating cup drinking fairly and agreeing with the wealth of misinformation that often accompanies it are two very different things. After listening to the podcast episode I think you will find it very clear where I draw the line. I do not include cup drinking as part of anything I would recommend. But I have to evaluate it on its merits to truly be able to make that decision. Giving it a fair analysis doesn't mean I agree with it.

 

[kinyonga]

Many of the hatchling chameleons I had would turn down licking the drips off the leaves and the side of the cages they were in and rush to the little bit of water that was running down the sides of the cage and pooling on the floor of the cage. Not a cup, but not a leaf either.

I usually stopped them from doing that because if the pool was big enough that they could aspirate it.

 

[suprdude]

Bill Strand did an amazing job on this podcast. Very thoughtful and well laid out. Most of the folks at the Reddit chameleon forums are water bowl fanatics, despite the fact that few chameleons keepers use them. They do not welcome anything that questions their assumptions, however unfounded.

 

[JacksJill]

Well presented and well rounded discussion. Thank you.
I'd like rebut one "factoid" presented by the social media guru. Bacteria is present on all surfaces and on the dust we and our chameleons breathe. Unless an animal is immune compromised the majority of these bacteria are harmless. Only a very small percentage are a threat to healthy animals under specific circumstances.
Husbandry, husbandry, husbandry in the form of good nutrition, appropriate heat, light, ventilation and waste removal or sanitation, in this case either through manual cleaning or a bio-active system is the key to infection prevention. If your not meeting the physical needs of your chameleon and your cage bottom is a swamp of feces you may very well end up with a sick pet whether you use a mister or a shot glass. Not that I recommend the later as IMO it doesn't meet the criteria of good husbandry on it's own.

 

[MissSkittles]

I always enjoy your podcasts, and this one is no different. Your fairness in looking at the drinking glass viewpoint is interesting and food for thought. As with most of your podcasts and such, you presented not just the view from opposing topics and ideas, but encouraged tolerance and open-mindedness for the ‘other side’. I do hope that someone from that pro-water glass side happens to listen to the podcast. One of the ‘problems’ with that group is that they refuse to listen to any views that don’t align with their own and are quick to block people. Hopefully, they will someday allow a dialogue and ideas can be exchanged and given full consideration.
As for the belief that drinking from bacteria-laden leaves will cause disease and death…. All living creatures are constantly surrounded by bacteria and other organisms. Our bodies become accustomed to the external bacteria and other flora in our environment and only with a compromised immune system or other factor do we become sick from them. There is also the fact that the natural outside world is far from being sterile. I would imagine chameleons in the wild are drinking from leaves that other animals may have touched or defecated on, dead or decaying organic matter may have touched it and any number of icky ‘dirty’ things are possible. Compared to being in the wild, the conditions of our enclosures (when properly maintenances) are quite sanitary.

 

[Gingero]

refuse to listen to any views that don’t align with their own and are quick to block people.

This is the exact reason I have such a hard time with other chameleon communities. We should always approach our care with a critical lens and challenge the norms. I hope that by doing so, the average live expectancy for chameleons will be double what it is now.

 

[elizaann2]

I always enjoy your podcasts, and this one is no different. Your fairness in looking at the drinking glass viewpoint is interesting and food for thought. As with most of your podcasts and such, you presented not just the view from opposing topics and ideas, but encouraged tolerance and open-mindedness for the ‘other side’. I do hope that someone from that pro-water glass side happens to listen to the podcast. One of the ‘problems’ with that group is that they refuse to listen to any views that don’t align with their own and are quick to block people. Hopefully, they will someday allow a dialogue and ideas can be exchanged and given full consideration.
As for the belief that drinking from bacteria-laden leaves will cause disease and death…. All living creatures are constantly surrounded by bacteria and other organisms. Our bodies become accustomed to the external bacteria and other flora in our environment and only with a compromised immune system or other factor do we become sick from them. There is also the fact that the natural outside world is far from being sterile. I would imagine chameleons in the wild are drinking from leaves that other animals may have touched or defecated on, dead or decaying organic matter may have touched it and any number of icky ‘dirty’ things are possible. Compared to being in the wild, the conditions of our enclosures (when properly maintenances) are quite sanitary.

Agreed! If my one of my chameleons happens to poo on a leaf, I just cut the leaf off as well...just to be extra cautious. Lucky for me this doesn't happen too often.

Also, is there going to be a live YouTube about this? I was planning on joining today but cant find it.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Agreed! If my one of my chameleons happens to poo on a leaf, I just cut the leaf off as well...just to be extra cautious. Lucky for me this doesn't happen too often.

Also, is there going to be a live YouTube about this? I was planning on joining today but cant find it.

yes, the weekly 12 noon PST "Chameleons & Coffee" on Youtube is on as usual!
You can find it here
YouTube Live "Chameleons & Coffee"

I'll see you soon!

 

[elizaann2]

yes, the weekly 12 noon PST "Chameleons & Coffee" on Youtube is on as usual!
You can find it here
YouTube Live "Chameleons & Coffee"

I'll see you soon!

Awesome thank you!

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Chameleons technically have the same tongue(with a few modifications) as the anole,iguana,water dragon, bearded dragon. All of these creatures drink out of a bowl the same way.

Spray any of these creatures in the face and they will start drinking.

All of these creatures have recommendations for a shallow drinking bowl that should be changed regularly.

I have witnessed all of these creatures drink out of a bowl with no training.

I have witnessed all of these creatures drink from "leaves/glass" that have been sprayed with water.

I have never had any of these creatures with "just" a bowl or "just" misting.

Based on experience the bowl drinkers only drink a few times per week. While the misters drink several times a day.

I dont believe one method is more sanitary than another. Both methods can end up with food/feces in the drink. Both methods can end up with algae/bacteria if exposed to light and dispensing item is not cleaned on the regular.

It sounds like in the way you set it up that you feel offering them a cup was pretty effective, maybe even more effective than your misters if I read that right?
I would love to see your set-up and hear what kind of hydration regimen you use now.

 

[nightanole]

It sounds like in the way you set it up that you feel offering them a cup was pretty effective, maybe even more effective than your misters if I read that right?
I would love to see your set-up and hear what kind of hydration regimen you use now.

Honestly the setup is not that special.

What i did was use a mister with a nozzle in a water bottle with a pin hole at the bottom. When the mister went off it would mist all the leaves, and fill up the bottle. The bottle would then leak over time into a shallow ramekin bowl, and provide agitation to get the cham to come over, and splash abit on the leaves. After about an hour the bottle would be empty. And i would just rotate out the ramekin every day or two.

Sorry dont have a pic.

 

[absolutbill]

Bill, I thought it was a great episode, though I will admit I was driving while listening, and as you started the episode by asking the question I screamed "NO" in my car. Thankfully I didn't have any passengers, though anyone who would have been in there know me well enough not to be surprised. I did think you gave it a very good take, and that's one of the myriad reasons I love your podcast. I've changed some of my husbandry after hearing about your experiments. I am curious though, and this may be because I don't use the cups, so have no clue how deep they are, but what about the chance of a cham slipping and falling into the cup and drowning? I know that if a cham falls that's indicative of more issues, but still I would think that would be a major concern, even for the die-hard Redditors.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Bill, I thought it was a great episode, though I will admit I was driving while listening, and as you started the episode by asking the question I screamed "NO" in my car. Thankfully I didn't have any passengers, though anyone who would have been in there know me well enough not to be surprised. I did think you gave it a very good take, and that's one of the myriad reasons I love your podcast. I've changed some of my husbandry after hearing about your experiments. I am curious though, and this may be because I don't use the cups, so have no clue how deep they are, but what about the chance of a cham slipping and falling into the cup and drowning? I know that if a cham falls that's indicative of more issues, but still I would think that would be a major concern, even for the die-hard Redditors.

Although I can see how that technically might happen I wouldn't be concerned about my chameleon slipping and falling if I wanted to use this hydration method. I would chalk that up to freak accident and make sure the size glass I used wouldn't increase the chances of this happening.

Once again, I do not yet see a reason why using a glass of water would be preferable to other more natural hydration methods. So me talking about making it work should not be confused with me actually doing it!

 

[Tkrd69]

All the information was great and well thought out. Some of my plant leaves have what appears to be a natural bowl shape and my veiled has drank from this.

 

[Lindasjackson]

I listened to most of it but got busy and didn’t finish it. It was a great podcast! Thank you Bill!