Confused on what to do

[Paintedlady]

Sigh, I was hoping I wouldn't have to be doing this but I need some help with my Meller's cham

She's been showing odd symptoms lately, one minute I think she's fine, the other I fear she's about to die on me. Ive found her once trying to paw at the top of the cage so I closed the lights and she calmed down. Twice now we find her on the bottom of the tank, this time we actually thought she was dead. I noticed the saliva dripping the one time, I had read here about signs of dehydration so I knew right away I was in trouble with her so I put her in the shower for twenty minutes as well, I've been trying to get her to drink but she won't open her mouth. Her eyes are starting to sink in but then when I put up the mist king system, the next day she looked better and her eyes were bulged and buggy looking like she's supposed to but now she looks weak and dehydrated again! I'll go ahead and give you guys the run down with the info sheet and please if you have suggestions on what I'm doing wrong please tell me! Thanks

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Meller's chameleon, about six month old I was told, female, had her for about two weeks now.

Handling - Not really handling her unless it's to try to get her to drink when I thought she was severely dehydrated.

Feeding - I'm feeding her medium sized crickets, she eats about ten to twelve a day, usually give them to her in the mornings. Crickets have water in jelly form and fluker's cricket food, also throw in some lettuce and fruit sometimes.

Supplements - Not using any, just reptile water conditioner in her water source.

Watering - I use the dripper system for her, also I'll gently try to spray some water near her mouth, usually she would drink when I did it this way but past couple of days she won't. I also installed a mistking system two days ago. I have the timer set to go off at 8,8:30,11,3,5 and 7pm all for two minutes each misting. I have not seen her drinking from the dripper or leaves except for when sprayed her mouth.

Fecal Description - I found recent droppings in her tank, they seem to be slime coated and brown/firm but no trace of white anywhere and I haven't been finding any urine anywhere since I got her either. She has not been tested for parasites as far as I know.

Cage Info:

Cage Type -Her cage is an exoterra glass/screen top combo, I forget the dimensions but it's one of the larger ones on the market.

Lighting - She has a uv/spotlight bulb for basking I think it's a Zoomed model, she also has an infrared light for nightime to keep the temperature regulated. I turn on the light around 8 am and turn it off around 9:45 pm.

Temperature - Her temperature fluctuates between 72 to 83 degrees. Basking area is around 78 right now. I have a digital thermometer to record the temps.

Humidity - Her humidity levels range between 60 to 80 I have the mistking to try to keep it as high as I can, but can't seem to ever get it up past 80. I have one of those "needle" style measuring hygrometers to read the humidity levels with.

Plants - All her plants are aritificial

Placement - Her cage is located in a small bedroom away from noise and traffic and other pets. Her cage is sitting about four feet above the floor level ( which is the bottom of the cage) so overall she's about six feet up from the ground.

Location - Ottawa Ontario

 

[kinyonga]

She should be passing urates.

The basking temperature is a bit low at 78F. They don't need heat at night unless the temperatures drop below the mid 60's F.

IMHO you need a better gutload, you need to provide proper supplements and you don't mention having a UVB light.

Have you read the Melleri Discovery site?? Most of the information you need will be there.
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/

 

[Paintedlady]

She should be passing urates.

The basking temperature is a bit low at 78F. They don't need heat at night unless the temperatures drop below the mid 60's F.

IMHO you need a better gutload, you need to provide proper supplements and you don't mention having a UVB light.

Have you read the Melleri Discovery site?? Most of the information you need will be there.
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/

The zoomed light we got her is supposed to be uvb as well. I'll try putting another light beside the basking light just to get the temp up higher. I have gone over that site and read it but she's displaying such random symptoms that I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I do have a mesh cage that is larger on the way, just waiting for it to show up in the mail so I can set it up pronto. I just don't know how to get her to drink?? One minute she looks fine after the misting has gone off but then a few hours later she looks dehydrated again

 

[Jimturner]

Mellers require ALOT of water and even more space. I mist for more than an hour through-out the day... My mellers take their time starting to drink then drink alot for a long time. I mist for 20 minutes @ 9:30 am, 10 @ 11am, 10 @ 1pm, 10 @ 3pm, 10 @ 5 and 20 again @ 7. I also pick a couple days each week for "rainy" days and mist for a few hours straight. I often see my chams sitting directly in the mist drinking and enjoying the moisture during the longer sessions. I don't think you could meet their water requirements without flooding a small glass tank unless it was modified with some sort of drain. In my opinion, even the largest of exo-tera tanks is way to small for anything other than a very small juvie meller. My mellers are all in large screen enclosures with drainage able to handle the large amount of water needed. The smallest being 2x2x4 and the largest being 2x5x7. A day time ambient room temp in the low to mid 70s and a basking area in the mid to upper 80's seems to suit these animals well and is easy to accomplish with a 60 watt flood bulb in a dome fixture. UVB should also be provided by a 5.0 tube. Like most chams a night drop in temp into the 60's is good as well.Hope this helps. Cheers!

 

[kinyonga]

Sunken eyes can be a sign of dehydration, but it can also be because a chameleon is sick.

Has she been raising her head at all so that her nose is high in the air?

 

[jessica]

Aww poor baby.

Like Jim said these guys need ALOT of water, more so when acclimating.

Kinyonga has such a valid point sunken eyes could mean so much more then dehydration. Honestley I would start with your cage and mist scheduale, it really doesnt sound efficent for a melleri.

Try and get a digital thermometer/hygrometer, the analog ones are usually very inaccurate.

Melleri are very sensative to stress, it can easily be there demise. The quicker you find out what is upsetting him/her the better chance of survival your sweet little melleri has.

Good luck with your guy, check out the link Kinyonga gave you to reference your husbandry.

 

[fluxlizard]

She's probably crashing on you.

6 months old is probably balloon juice- she is most likely an import with all the associated problems and nobody knows her age.

They prefer to drink fine mist directly out of the air. If you can get a misting system or a patio mister (here sometimes walmart sells single nozzle misters that can be screwed onto the end of a garden hose and used for personal cooling in the summer for a few dollars- these do an excellent job for the price for a single enclosure).

When acclimating melleri, I use several hours of fine mist per day over the enclosures for several weeks at least (usually for the first 3 or 4 months), then cut back to 20 minutes 2x per day indoors.

They really need that to acclimate- they will sit for hours in the mist during this time, slowly very slowly smacking their lips and drinking sometimes for hours. When acclimating it can take them 30-60 minutes to decide to crawl into the mist once it starts also. Part of the enclosure should be dry, part wet so the lizard can move in and out.

I agree with everything else everyone is saying in this thread so far too- plenty of room, some nice leafy plant, warm basking spot (85 ish), cool nights (50s or 60s).

Really, you should also be considering treatment for parasites and maybe a round of antibiotics like baytril under the guidance of a vet.

 

[Carlton]

The zoomed light we got her is supposed to be uvb as well. I'll try putting another light beside the basking light just to get the temp up higher. I have gone over that site and read it but she's displaying such random symptoms that I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I do have a mesh cage that is larger on the way, just waiting for it to show up in the mail so I can set it up pronto. I just don't know how to get her to drink?? One minute she looks fine after the misting has gone off but then a few hours later she looks dehydrated again

Don't believe the bulb that claims to be BOTH UV and heat. Many incandescent bulbs don't produce much if any UVB. What is the BRAND and type of bulb?

I agree...your supplementation is not correct and the gutload isn't very good. That, in combination with a poor light are causing multiple nutritional problems. "She" (melleri are very hard to sex so don't believe the seller) is most likely wildcaught, not captive bred, so she'll be dealing with a lot of shipping stress, dehydration, possible injuries, parasites. The parasite load may have started off being manageable for her, but as her immune response declines the population can bloom and cause systemic stress on its own. You need to find out what she has and at what level.

I've rescued a wildcaught melleri who did this pendulum swing of symptoms as well. One day he'd look fine, the next really bad. Couldn't seem to keep him hydrated. His appetite was all over the place. Had a hard time maintaining body weight. Over months he started to stabilize, but was never totally right. Some lab work showed abnormal levels of uric acid. My theory was that he suffered some kidney damage from terrible care, dehydration and who know what else while he was in the exporter's holding facility and during shipping.

Melleri can and do crash months after you get them. When you first get them they are still in crisis mode...trying to hide their problems from you the potential predator...until they either settle down in good health, or all the accumulated problems overwhelm them.

 

[Carlton]

The zoomed light we got her is supposed to be uvb as well. I'll try putting another light beside the basking light just to get the temp up higher. I have gone over that site and read it but she's displaying such random symptoms that I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I do have a mesh cage that is larger on the way, just waiting for it to show up in the mail so I can set it up pronto. I just don't know how to get her to drink?? One minute she looks fine after the misting has gone off but then a few hours later she looks dehydrated again

One way that helped my melleri was to first, start spraying generally so they start reflexively licking their lips and swallowing. Once they start, use a hand sprayer to dribble warm water right over their face so the water runs down their snout and lips. Once she starts drinking directly from the mister keep giving her water as long as she will drink. They can drink slowly for 20-30 minutes like this. Eventually you can use a feeding syringe to give them water which saves a lot of effort! When full, (chams have small stomachs and no sphyncter between the stomach and esophagus so they can aspirate water if they get overfull) they tend to tip their head up straight and turn away from the water. She may be thirsty again in a few hours so do this again.

 

[kinyonga]

Meller's are not an easy chameleon to keep...and easily stressed (as was already said). I hope fluxlizard is wrong, but I tend to agree that it might be crashing. All you can do is try your best with it. Drip water on its nose or mist it until it starts to drink and keep letting it drink as long as it will...as has been suggested already. If its not eating on its own, try to put a cricket/insect between its teeth when its mouth is opening and shutting while drinking...and continue until it takes a few (if it will). Make sure the insects are dusted with calcium and that it has a good source of UVB. Try not to annoy/bother it it any more than absolutely necessary.

Here's some general information that might help...
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

Good luck!

 

[Paintedlady]

Sunken eyes can be a sign of dehydration, but it can also be because a chameleon is sick.

Has she been raising her head at all so that her nose is high in the air?

No she hasn't been raising her head, only when I was misting near her mouth and she was drinking would she raise her head up a bit and she would open her mouth to take in the water and I could see her swallowing.

 

[Paintedlady]

Mellers require ALOT of water and even more space. I mist for more than an hour through-out the day... My mellers take their time starting to drink then drink alot for a long time. I mist for 20 minutes @ 9:30 am, 10 @ 11am, 10 @ 1pm, 10 @ 3pm, 10 @ 5 and 20 again @ 7. I also pick a couple days each week for "rainy" days and mist for a few hours straight. I often see my chams sitting directly in the mist drinking and enjoying the moisture during the longer sessions. I don't think you could meet their water requirements without flooding a small glass tank unless it was modified with some sort of drain. In my opinion, even the largest of exo-tera tanks is way to small for anything other than a very small juvie meller. My mellers are all in large screen enclosures with drainage able to handle the large amount of water needed. The smallest being 2x2x4 and the largest being 2x5x7. A day time ambient room temp in the low to mid 70s and a basking area in the mid to upper 80's seems to suit these animals well and is easy to accomplish with a 60 watt flood bulb in a dome fixture. UVB should also be provided by a 5.0 tube. Like most chams a night drop in temp into the 60's is good as well.Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks for giving me an idea of how much I should set the timer for. I do have a 48x24x24 on the way in the mail it's one of those zoobreeze ( I think that's what it was called ) I'm going to be putting her in there as soon as it gets here and fix my timer up for those amounts of time like you have.

 

[fluxlizard]

One thing that does sound hopeful is her appetite. 10-12 crickets per day is a pretty good appetite.

 

[Paintedlady]

One way that helped my melleri was to first, start spraying generally so they start reflexively licking their lips and swallowing. Once they start, use a hand sprayer to dribble warm water right over their face so the water runs down their snout and lips. Once she starts drinking directly from the mister keep giving her water as long as she will drink. They can drink slowly for 20-30 minutes like this. Eventually you can use a feeding syringe to give them water which saves a lot of effort! When full, (chams have small stomachs and no sphyncter between the stomach and esophagus so they can aspirate water if they get overfull) they tend to tip their head up straight and turn away from the water. She may be thirsty again in a few hours so do this again.

Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing is spraying everywhere and when I saw her open her mouth, I gently spray near her snout and she would drink like this. I adjusted the misting system earlier and ran it for twenty minutes and sure enough after a few minutes I could see her drinking the water building on her snout I was so relieved to see her drinking hopefully it keeps up!