Coloration in Ambilobes

[lou8706]

Hey everyone. Lately i have been considering if i ever want to breed my blue bar ambilobe male. It got me thinking about the main two types of ambilobes, red and blue barred. Are these considered two different locales which should not be interbred? Has anyone done this? What do the offspring look like?

Also, what about breeding the "normal" looking blue barred green background ambilobes with blue bar red backgrounds?

Thanks for any input,
Lou

 

[Chameleon Kingdom]

Hi, just wanted to tell you that all red/blue bar ambilobes
are of the same local. Ambilobes are like people, you can
try to mate two by the way they look, but It doesn't mean
they will look like what you're aiming for. You can mate two
red bars and have some blue bar offspring, and vice versa. Like that
famous saying goes.... It's like a box of chocolates, you never
know what you're gonna get!!! Just remember, that's half the fun!!

 

[ColorCham427]

wow i never knew that..cool

 

[lou8706]

Then how can people advertise female or baby chams as red or blue barred, when really they don't know what they could be?

 

[Smitty]

I would think that it is much like genetics.

Mating two reds would have a better chance of producing a red but there is most likely a chance for a resesive gene that could produce a blue (if both pairs have the resesive blue gene). The chance of a blue offspring would be less than a red, unless the blue is a dominant gene...

Or something like that! It has been years since I've been in any genetics classes and I decided against going that route for a career.

 

[lou8706]

So, if it is random to get red bar, blue bar, or both in the offspring, how do breeders choose what female to breed the sire with to get the results they are hoping for?

 

[stevereecy]

Hey everyone. Lately i have been considering if i ever want to breed my blue bar ambilobe male. It got me thinking about the main two types of ambilobes, red and blue barred. Are these considered two different locales which should not be interbred? Has anyone done this? What do the offspring look like?

Also, what about breeding the "normal" looking blue barred green background ambilobes with blue bar red backgrounds?

Thanks for any input,
Lou

I would try to breed with the most similar looking background. That way, you would have animals with a greater chance of looking like their papa. I'm a purist, and don't like mixing morphs. I do understand its an opinion thing. But when I buy an animal, I buy it based on what the father looks like in hopes that my animal will carry the same genes. The less likely that is, the less interested I am.

Steve

 

[lou8706]

I agree, i do not want to mix two morphs. I feel like i am getting mixed messages...chameleon kingdom says that red and blue bar ambilobes are the same locale and can produce either color, while stevereecy says that he does not agree with mixing two morphs, which would imply that red and blue barred ambilobes are different morphs? I'm sorta confused.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

They are from the same locale that bred naturally in the wild thats what makes them Ambilobes. I also disagree with mixing locales this dose nothing but increases the possibility of buying morph rather then a specific locale. Lets say your trying to breed Mitsio and someone sells you a female Morph because they thought it was Mitsio and on and on. the locale will be lost in captive breeding attempts. Things should be left as nature intended.

 

[Chameleon Kingdom]

I'm sorry if you're getting confused....
Let's try it this way. Back to somple genetics.
Take people for example: Just because two people
have different color eyes, doesn't make them a different
"morph". A blue eyed person is just the same as a brown eyed
person. If two people with blue eyes "mate" and have offspring,
the offspring are more likelt to have blue eyes.
Yet, It's still possible that the offspring may take after
a grandparent, and have brown eyes.
No cross breeding involved,
just simple genetics applied to a complex system with many
varieations between each individual. Hope this helps.

 

[Chameleon Kingdom]

I agree with Dean. Cross breeding locals is not a good thing in my
opinion.I would not do that myself.
With Ambilobes, red bars and blue bars are just a pert of the
whole ambilobe local. There have been some instances where
people have had a blue bar, and it changed over time to be a red bar,
and vice versa.
They just have a wider array of colors than most locals. That's why
they are more popular in my opinion.

 

[lou8706]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I understand the whole genetics concept. Its like hair color...there are dominant and recessive genes, so just because both parents are blonde doesn't mean all the kids will be. I guess i am confused about selecting a female. The females i see for sale usually say red bar, blue bar, blue bar-red background, etc. I don't see how they can know this with a female. Do they just know that the female is homozygous dominant for that color?

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

where are the yellow bar ones?

With the 3 different color genes: black, red, blue, yellow(the 5th being absent of color "white")
The blue gene is said to be dominant, at least within the bars of the ambilobe genotype.
but that doesn't seem to hold true with some of the images I've seen from crossing the different locals together
Also KC's comment about different color expression changing over time is very interesting
meaning that possible phenotypes are going to make all of this genetic stuff so much more difficult to work out.
(cue the twilight zone music)

Anyway, We can only assume that any non expressive (blue bar) female would have a nice probability
of being non homozygous (heterozygous individual) or carrying another recessive along into the next generation
-from either of her parents.
producing 25% heterozygous mixed kids from one parent.
50% from double heterozygous/25% double recessive mix

Without taking a poll or nailing any of the experienced breeders to a wall over this...
I'm going to assume that they're largely basing their
nomenclature upon the expressions of (at least) the last two generations of males.

The only way to generate a double dominant (DD) gene line would be to breed
and constantly fold that line into itself (or several in parallel )
until all the recessives are weeded out (difficult)
Same with a desirable recessive color ( a bit easier).
I don't think that any of the breeders has been able to advance this far along
and are primarily working on overall color schemes
and definition/expression of "arch types" for their colonies.

Part of the interest with me is that color combinations that are possible...
but also the mechanism operating within and underlying it. (phenotypes!)
Has anyone worked out what are all dominant and recessive genes
in the Furcifer Pardalis species?
I don't recall anything published detailing with this yet...
but I'm starting to get a gut feeling as to why.

 

[stevereecy]

I agree, i do not want to mix two morphs. I feel like i am getting mixed messages...chameleon kingdom says that red and blue bar ambilobes are the same locale and can produce either color, while stevereecy says that he does not agree with mixing two morphs, which would imply that red and blue barred ambilobes are different morphs? I'm sorta confused.

No, I'm not saying they are diffent morphs. I'm just saying that I believe if two chams of the same morph (from the same region), I think it is in the breeder's best interest to breed it with the same color because many (but not all) people make their decision to purchase a panther based upon the color of the father under the assumption that the offspring will look similar.

Ambanja Panthers can have blue or red bands. If you had a male with blue bands, and I wanted an animal that looked like yours, I might change my mind if I found out that the sire of the father was a red banded ambanja. I'm trying to make a really nice line of blue banded ambanjas now. I wouldn't consider purchasing a redxblue band cross, though they are the same morph, because it would make my task more difficult.

I'm gonna have to blog about this, but back in the old days...which (laughably) was only 5 years ago when I was active in chams, the chameleon community generally was very down on mixing morphs, or crossing colors. I'm a big advocate of peoples rights...do what you want with your animal...but when it comes time to sell the offspring, you should know that you may be cutting out people with "my" mindset as potential customers. That might not matter to you...and thats fine...but I thought I'd help you out and call your attention to it.

Steve

 

[lou8706]

OK thanks. So it would be best to try and purchase a female from two blue bar parents, since I have a blue bar male? That is if i want to try and hatch out more blue bars.

 

[Screameleons]

If you would like a higher chance of producing blue bars, try going with a female with a blue-barred male sibling. The Sire and Dam can be a good indicator of what colors the specimen carries. However, a sibling is the absolute best indicator.

 

[lou8706]

Thanks alot for the info!