Choosing night light for chameleon

[Klyde O'Scope]

Youre right wild caught chameleons would better know the sunrise/sunset then the CB counterparts. Then i guess there would be no harm if I try a light, along as they get total darkness 11+ hours. I messaged Bill Strand so he can shine some more light (no pun intended)on the matter. I know we cant 100% replicate nature but I guess I want to mimic as much as I can possibly can without going overboard.

No harm in trying. I'd question myself if I were doing it for the cham or for my own (human) sensibilities. YMMV.

As far as mimicking nature, it's a simple matter to look up sunlight data from Madagascar, Yemen, or wherever to simulate the hours per day throughout the year, but again, after umpteen generations of captive breeding, IDK if all that isn't well-intentioned wishful thinking. ?

 

[jamest0o0]

No harm in trying. I'd question myself if I were doing it for the cham or for my own (human) sensibilities. YMMV.

As far as mimicking nature, it's a simple matter to look up sunlight data from Madagascar, Yemen, or wherever to simulate the hours per day throughout the year, but again, after umpteen generations of captive breeding, IDK if all that isn't well-intentioned wishful thinking. ?

Can't say if the sunset/sunrise play any part in it, but if you have ever kept a chameleon, you will notice, the more natural of a setting you give them, the more 'normal' they seem to act. While living outside my guy has a much more natural way of doing things that you can't really explain until seeing it. Even inside, changing the lights, adding plants, substrate, etc to be as close to natural as possible makes a difference IME.

 

[salty dog]

I don't think a chameleon has the brain capacity for understanding, appreciating, abstract thought process.etc.. those are human emotions

 

[felo1812]

No harm in trying. I'd question myself if I were doing it for the cham or for my own (human) sensibilities. YMMV.

As far as mimicking nature, it's a simple matter to look up sunlight data from Madagascar, Yemen, or wherever to simulate the hours per day throughout the year, but again, after umpteen generations of captive breeding, IDK if all that isn't well-intentioned wishful thinking. ?

I don't think a chameleon has the brain capacity for understanding, appreciating, abstract thought process.etc.. those are human emotions

You're probably right, they probably dont understand that type of thinking, but again we dont know that for a fact. They have evolved with nature for who knows how long, thousands and thousands of years? I think deep inside of them, like in their primal instinct, they must know that 12/12 on the dot and lights out its not normal...I think that just because they got used to what we "developed" to keep them in captivity doesn't mean its the right way. Im new to keeping, but I dont think "keeping" has been around for long enough to say that they cant understand their habitat and what its "natural" of sorts.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Lot of anthropomorphizing going on there, IMO.

 

[felo1812]

No harm in trying. I'd question myself if I were doing it for the cham or for my own (human) sensibilities. YMMV.

As far as mimicking nature, it's a simple matter to look up sunlight data from Madagascar, Yemen, or wherever to simulate the hours per day throughout the year, but again, after umpteen generations of captive breeding, IDK if all that isn't well-intentioned wishful thinking. ?

 

[felo1812]

Lot of anthropomorphizing going on there, IMO.

Hmmm dont think so, its in my opinion ignorant to think that we know it all with animals, we have not studied animals enough to say things are certain, specially reptiles...Anthropomorphizing isnt that giving animals personalities or human traits? I gotta look it up, but if it is. I dont think giving an animal that is not domesticated like a dog or a cat, a habitat that can closely mimic their natural setting anthropomorphizing...correct me if im wrong, but isnt keeping an evolving practice? I doubt they use the same keeping techniques now as they did 20-30 years ago. Its not about me wanting to be happy and make my cage look sick, its about me better understanding and evolving my husbandry to give this chameleon that originated from Madagascar a place like home, here in Oregon.

 

[jamest0o0]

Hmmm dont think so, its in my opinion ignorant to think that we know it all with animals, we have not studied animals enough to say things are certain, specially reptiles...Anthropomorphizing isnt that giving animals personalities or human traits? I gotta look it up, but if it is. I dont think giving an animal that is not domesticated like a dog or a cat, a habitat that can closely mimic their natural setting anthropomorphizing...correct me if im wrong, but isnt keeping an evolving practice? I doubt they use the same keeping techniques now as they did 20-30 years ago. Its not about me wanting to be happy and make my cage look sick, its about me better understanding and evolving my husbandry to give this chameleon that originated from Madagascar a place like home, here in Oregon.

You're entirely right, honestly I'd just ignore that guy. He's only kept a bearded dragon as far as I know and has come to this forum portraying himself as a know-it-all while ignoring anyone that corrects him and that's when he's not being blatantly rude.

Chameleons having a natural light schedule makes sense. It has nothing to do with what they're thinking about. It's likely instinct, how else would we explain the species that only breed after certain weather patterns/conditions. There are species that need the end of winter signaling, increased rain, etc to start breeding, even when CB. How else would they know about any of this if they were raised in captivity? You bring up good points and many of the experts that I have known(not just loud mouths on the forums, like myself even heh) have tried to simulate sunrise/sunset.

I'm also usually arguing against anthropomorphising, I don't see how this is anything like that though. 100% agree. And yeah, the husbandry advice has changed drastically in just the last 1-2 years. Hell, it's only recent people are using soil as substrate. Fogging at night is new, mist times have changed, chams don't benefit from humidity during shedding, ahhh the list goes on.... not much is completely understood with these guys.

 

[felo1812]

You're entirely right, honestly I'd just ignore that guy. He's only kept a bearded dragon as far as I know and has come to this forum portraying himself as a know-it-all while ignoring anyone that corrects him and that's when he's not being blatantly rude.

Chameleons having a natural light schedule makes sense. It has nothing to do with what they're thinking about. It's likely instinct, how else would we explain the species that only breed after certain weather patterns/conditions. There are species that need the end of winter signaling, increased rain, etc to start breeding, even when CB. How else would they know about any of this if they were raised in captivity? You bring up good points and many of the experts that I have known(not just loud mouths on the forums, like myself even heh) have tried to simulate sunrise/sunset.

I'm also usually arguing against anthropomorphising, I don't see how this is anything like that though. 100% agree. And yeah, the husbandry advice has changed drastically in just the last 1-2 years. Hell, it's only recent people are using soil as substrate. Fogging at night is new, mist times have changed, chams don't benefit from humidity during shedding, ahhh the list goes on.... not much is completely understood with these guys.

Haha he can bring it on! As long as we keep it civilized, a little debate might teach us all something. You know i dont usually sign up for forums, let alone post or anything. Im new to reptile keeping, just have a Panther, but before getting into it I did lots of research (or so i though) but i was/ and still scratching the surface. And from what I learn so are we all. This is why i signed up, to collaborate , because we all are still learners and we can learn a whole lot more if we push our thinking of what proper husbandry is. I am going to give it a try, in-fact tomorrow I should have the lights in, and hopefully installed. And funny you mention the fogger at night , been also reading about it and that's something that I will be trying in tandem with my mist king...but thats for another day

 

[jamest0o0]

Haha he can bring it on! As long as we keep it civilized, a little debate might teach us all something. You know i dont usually sign up for forums, let alone post or anything. Im new to reptile keeping, just have a Panther, but before getting into it I did lots of research (or so i though) but i was/ and still scratching the surface. And from what I learn so are we all. This is why i signed up, to collaborate , because we all are still learners and we can learn a whole lot more if we push our thinking of what proper husbandry is. I am going to give it a try, in-fact tomorrow I should have the lights in, and hopefully installed. And funny you mention the fogger at night , been also reading about it and that's something that I will be trying in tandem with my mist king...but thats for another day

That's great, this is about the only forum/social media I do as well. I really think being a part of a forum is the only way to be successful with chameleons and many other more complex animals.

I've been trying to keep it civil lately. Everyone here is chill for the most part. I just thought it was dumb to be shutting down what you're saying, dismissing it as anthropomorphising. I don't intend to waste any time/energy being mad or fighting with anyone. Happy to have conversations though

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Hmmm dont think so, its in my opinion ignorant to think that we know it all with animals, we have not studied animals enough to say things are certain, specially reptiles...

Yes & no. Research is always going on, and ongoing.

Anthropomorphizing isnt that giving animals personalities or human traits? I gotta look it up

Yes, by all means; anthropomorphizing goes beyond that, e.g. behaviors, thought processes, cognition, and more.
Anthropomorphization isn't believing animals think—some obviously do. It's believing that they think like humans.

When you say things like...

I think deep inside of them, like in their primal instinct, they must know that 12/12 on the dot and lights out its not normal...I think that just because they got used to what we "developed" to keep them in captivity doesn't mean its the right way.

..that's making assumptions not in (scientific—not anecdotal) evidence. As you say, "we dont know that for a fact."

Instinct doesn't involve conscious thought. When something flies at your head, you don't consciously think, "Oh, something's flying at my head. I think I'll duck." You just DO it. Reptiles do have a circadian clock; it's not something they think about any more than we do; it's hard-wired, so to speak. Circadian rhythms are biochemical—not conscious deliberate actions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_clock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

When it gets dark (whether gradually or instantaneously), they go to sleep. When it gets light, they wake up.

Im new to keeping, but I dont think "keeping" has been around for long enough to say that they cant understand their habitat and what its "natural" of sorts.

Depends on your definition of "keeping". Humans have lived & worked with animals (e.g. dogs, wolf-dogs; some theories are now in question. More evidence that research continues.) for 40,000 years by most estimates.

did dogs evolve from wolves?

If reptiles understood their habitat and what is "natural", what would be explanations for why some run into walls, show aggression toward reflections, try to climb onto lights, or any of a myriad of behaviors that suggest they do not understand their habitat? I think they may understand more than we give them credit for, but not to the extent I infer you're implying.

Some interesting research has been done on reptiles, and more is ongoing, e.g. it's been found that bearded dragons can learn behaviors from other bearded dragons and tortoises possess long-term memory.

I dont think giving an animal that is not domesticated like a dog or a cat, a habitat that can closely mimic their natural setting anthropomorphizing...

Giving an animal that habitat, no. Assuming that animal is going to know or appreciate the difference, and/or feel about it the way humans do, yes.

correct me if im wrong, but isnt keeping an evolving practice? I doubt they use the same keeping techniques now as they did 20-30 years ago. Its not about me wanting to be happy and make my cage look sick, its about me better understanding and evolving my husbandry to give this chameleon that originated from Madagascar a place like home, here in Oregon.

I'm not aware of anyone saying husbandry isn't an evolving discipline.
Anthropomorphizing comes in when we believe a chameleon has any conception of "home" or "Madagascar". If its basic biological needs (bottom tier of Maslow's hierarchy—food, water, warmth rest) are met, it should thrive. That's why folks here put so much emphasis on husbandry with the questionnaire.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Hmmm dont think so, its in my opinion ignorant to think that we know it all with animals, we have not studied animals enough to say things are certain, specially reptiles...

Yes & no. Research is always going on, and ongoing.

kinyonga posts a lot of interesting studies. There are several in General Discussion right now (you may have to go through a couple pages)

I learn a lot reading articles & studies I find on Google
reptile research (Google)
but when I can't find something there, I try Google Scholar (not the same).
reptile research (Google Scholar)

 

[felo1812]

Yes & no. Research is always going on, and ongoing.


Yes, by all means; anthropomorphizing goes beyond that, e.g. behaviors, thought processes, cognition, and more.
Anthropomorphization isn't believing animals think—some obviously do. It's believing that they think like humans.

When you say things like...

..that's making assumptions not in (scientific—not anecdotal) evidence. As you say, "we dont know that for a fact."

Instinct doesn't involve conscious thought. When something flies at your head, you don't consciously think, "Oh, something's flying at my head. I think I'll duck." You just DO it. Reptiles do have a circadian clock; it's not something they think about any more than we do; it's hard-wired, so to speak. Circadian rhythms are biochemical—not conscious deliberate actions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_clock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

When it gets dark (whether gradually or instantaneously), they go to sleep. When it gets light, they wake up.



Depends on your definition of "keeping". Humans have lived & worked with animals (e.g. dogs, wolf-dogs; some theories are now in question. More evidence that research continues.) for 40,000 years by most estimates.

did dogs evolve from wolves?

If reptiles understood their habitat and what is "natural", what would be explanations for why some run into walls, show aggression toward reflections, try to climb onto lights, or any of a myriad of behaviors that suggest they do not understand their habitat? I think they may understand more than we give them credit for, but not to the extent I infer you're implying.

Some interesting research has been done on reptiles, and more is ongoing, e.g. it's been found that bearded dragons can learn behaviors from other bearded dragons and tortoises possess long-term memory.


Giving an animal that habitat, no. Assuming that animal is going to know or appreciate the difference, and/or feel about it the way humans do, yes.


I'm not aware of anyone saying husbandry isn't an evolving discipline.
Anthropomorphizing comes in when we believe a chameleon has any conception of "home" or "Madagascar". If its basic biological needs (bottom tier of Maslow's hierarchy—food, water, warmth rest) are met, it should thrive. That's why folks here put so much emphasis on husbandry with the questionnaire.

I see where you are coming from, and I appreciate you elaborating on the subject, and i see "Assuming that animal is going to know or appreciate the difference, and/or feel about it the way humans do" can be anthropomorphizing..

But we dont see the same wavelengths as they do, so to assume that "having a time with minimal light and no uv rays before lights out", is something that they cannot "know or appreciate the difference" is unfounded...I guess when I have the light and my panther does or doesn't stop scrambling we will find if there is a "known/appreciation to the change".

And as for Maslow's theory as much as its a staple in psychology and sociology, its still a theory (an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events, an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true) and it has its many criticisms... so to say that just because their basic needs of water, food, shelter are met, they should thrive is in my opinion incorrect, they will just survive. There is still sooo much to learn and just like growing tomatoes, you can still grow tomatoes with soil, water, and light, but its all the little variables in between those that make you have great tomatoes or just tomatoes.

 

[felo1812]

kinyonga posts a lot of interesting studies. There are several in General Discussion right now (you may have to go through a couple pages)

I learn a lot reading articles & studies I find on Google
reptile research (Google)
but when I can't find something there, I try Google Scholar (not the same).
reptile research (Google Scholar)

I appreciate the links!! I will most definitely check them out! Thanks

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I see where you are coming from, and I appreciate you elaborating on the subject, and i see "Assuming that animal is going to know or appreciate the difference, and/or feel about it the way humans do" can be anthropomorphizing..

But we dont see the same wavelengths as they do, so to assume that "having a time with minimal light and no uv rays before lights out", is something that they cannot "know or appreciate the difference" is unfounded...

No more than contending that they can know or appreciate the difference, but appreciation is generally considered an abstract human concept. An animal may enjoy a particular stimulation (food, petting)—that can be seen on an MRI—but is that the same as appreciation? This is going to be a hot topic, but...

Can Your Reptile Bond with You?

I guess when I have the light and my panther does or doesn't stop scrambling we will find if there is a "known/appreciation to the change".

I'm not sure that would settle the question or not. (Double-blind with controls & all) Y'know who might have some answers or info... Dr. Frances Baines.

And as for Maslow's theory as much as its a staple in psychology and sociology, its still a theory (an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events, an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true) and it has its many criticisms... so to say that just because their basic needs of water, food, shelter are met, they should thrive is in my opinion incorrect, they will just survive.

How long are they going to survive without those needs being met? AFAIK, longevity is increased in captivity. I'd call that thriving.

There is still sooo much to learn and just like growing tomatoes, you can still grow tomatoes with soil, water, and light, but its all the little variables in between those that make you have great tomatoes or just tomatoes.

Didn't we already establish that husbandry is an evolving discipline?

Good talk.

 

[DeShawni Green]

Well...I simply noticed that when I turned off all his lights at once, he basically set up shop and slept where he was when the lights went out. Those spots looked a bit uncomfortable, and different than where he would normally choose to sleep when given a few minutes of low light to get the idea; its about to be bed time, so put on your pajamas and find a nice bed-spot for the night... I think he appreciates that.