Choking Jax - Just because he CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD

[Lathis]

I know I will probably get some (admittedly deserved) flack for my carelessness, so let me start off by expressing how incredibly terrible I feel and how very, very happy I am that everything turned out okay.

My Jax Ferdinand just loves his superworms. Because he's getting a bit chunky, I've reduced the number he gets, so he is just so very excited when one is offered to him. He's never had any troubles before with supers, gobbles them down in two gulps like a pro.

This morning, I gave The Ferds a big super - too big honestly, but hindsight is 20/20. Instead of grabbing its head or tail like he always has, he snagged it from the side and choked on it. It was really upsetting to watch, but I didn't want to intervene unless I had to. He finally did clear it and swallowed it.

I cut out the worst of the thrashing and me crying (I'm a mess), but I wanted to share this with my fellow newer keepers so they can avoid my mistake. It's not the worst video ever but it might be a little unsettling, so be forewarned. You can see how the worm is lodged in his mouth and how he shakes his head and wants to clear it with his rear foot.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lathisthebludgeoner/10087138105/

Moral of the Story (and why I posted in the Food Forum): Just because your cham CAN eat a giant superworm doesn't mean that you SHOULD feed it to him. If I hadn't been home and he hadn't been able to swallow it finally, it could have ended very badly. I will be far more careful with feeder size.

 

[MelissaB]

Sorry you and your guy had a scare. How long did it take for him to get it situated so he could swallow it? I feed my jackson xanth super worms of about the same size. I thought the rule of thumb was the width of the prey has to be smaller than the width between the eyes. I'm glad he's ok, and I hope your heart rate is back to normal, that had to be awful.

 

[jannb]

I am really glad to hear that Fern is ok. I hope people will read of your experience and learn from it. We have had a similar experience here once with a hornworm. https://www.chameleonforums.com/had-scare-morning-51851/

It is always better for your chameleon to eats several small feeders instead of one large.

 

[MelissaB]

So even if the feeders width is smaller than the space b/t the eyes, you should take into consideration the width if it possibly gets folded, if zapped in the center? Sorry about the run-on sentance.

 

[Lathis]

Heart rate is back to normal but now the guilt sets in. It wasn't even a huge superworm (I toss those), just fatter than usual. The whole thing took less than 2 minutes but felt like an eternity.



I've been watching him on my chamcam all day and he seems fine, but of course I just feel terribly irresponsible.

 

[Lathis]

So even if the feeders width is smaller than the space b/t the eyes, you should take into consideration the width if it possibly gets folded, if zapped in the center? Sorry about the run-on sentance.

I think you have too, just in case. I usually go by narrower than the eyes and no longer than the head, but honestly with worms I hadn't worried about that too much. Now I do.

 

[Psychobunny]

My Noogie nearly choaked on a roach once.
When I realized he wasnt going to make it, I had to take quick action and reach down his throat with forceps and pull it out.

I did nealy have a heart attack!!!

 

[MelissaB]

I'm glad you posted about your experience, and had the quick thinking to record it. I'm a little nervous about feeding him supers, now. I'll definitely watch how fat they are. Mine are all pretty skinny. I'd say 2 1/2 inches long and about a 1/4 inch wide. I think, if he hit them wrong, they could still give him trouble.
Don't be so hard on yourself, either. It could've happened to anyone. It's not like you tried to feed him something that was HUGE or obviously oversized. Deep breath, and a big glass of wine with dinner.

 

[ChamLady]

Oh, don't toss those big supers. I let them pupate, then feed those ugly, alien pupae to my juvvie veiled. He LOVES them, but I do have to get them to wiggle a bit to catch his interest.

 

[little leaf]

yike- I bet that was un-nerving ! but bless his little heart, look at him lick his lips like he is ready for more glad he is ok, I also had just bout this same thing w/ one of mine, but it was a silk worm - STUNNING boy you have there btw I know it was hard, but TY for posting, it will help others I am sure

 

[Lathis]

Deep breath, and a big glass of wine with dinner.

Best advice anyone could give right now

Psychobunny, I have actually read that post before and was thinking about it while the whole thing was happening. I wondered how you decided when to intervene. Happily, it wasn't necessary.

I had my phone out to take photos of Ferd, so it was just right timing to catch it on camera. I felt terrible taping it, but I thought it might be educational for the forum.

 

[Psychobunny]

I DID have to intervene! he was going into spasms, thrashing his head back and forth, and trying to pull it out himself with his foot!
I ran and got my soft plastic forceps and he actually let me reach down and
pull it out

When I got it out, he was looking at me like; 'Holly crap! that was close! THANKS"!! He locked his eyes right on me for a long time while I held the
forceps in my hand with the offending, mangled, slime covered mass at the end of it, that used to be a roach!!

He would not eat another roach (small one even) for days after.

After that episode, I cringe when I see ppl feeding huge mantids and such,
though it's unlikely, I know now that they can indeed choke on their prey.

 

[Lathis]

That is so scary. I get all racy-hearted and teary-eyed just thinking about Ferdinand in that situation.

The Ferds seems to be doing fine, though. Later yesterday, I offered him a cricket, and he was all like "WTH pink faced monkey, it's Friday. I get superworms on Friday. Come back with the appropriate offering or don't bother me at all.". I swear he rolled his eyes.

 

[Psychobunny]

LOL!! I know exactly what you mean!!
Once I find something they really seem to like, I buy more, offer it to them, and they look at it, then at me, like; "and this crap is...what...exactly?"

They can be soooo frustrating sometimes

 

[absolutbill]

The Ferds seems to be doing fine, though. Later yesterday, I offered him a cricket, and he was all like "WTH pink faced monkey, it's Friday. I get superworms on Friday. Come back with the appropriate offering or don't bother me at all.". I swear he rolled his eyes.

Hilarious comment! Seriously, you learned, you grew, and you shared, which is what we can all strive for on this forum. Fortunately this didn't end badly for Ferds, who is adorable BTW, and you are able to see how to do things differently. As for you being irresponsible, well anyone who has a cham cam to check on their little one while they are away is in NO WAY irresponsible! Take heart from that and from the fact that your video will save cham lives, I'm sure of it! Hope you enjoyed that big glass of wine last night

 

[Miss Lily]

I am so glad everything turned out ok for you and Ferdinand. I have a Jax myself (Monty) whom I love to bits and I just can't bring myself to watch the video as I know I will find it too upsetting. I hate to think of anything happening to my boy. Jacksons are something special.

 

[Tyaeda]

Mr. Pink has troubles with supers too. One day I saw him rip one in half with his mouth and front foot. Looked kinda like bugs bunny eating a carrot, but I didn't think it was funny at the time. We've switched him to meals and butterworms for now until he's fully grown. Even then I'll be nervous about his next super.

 

[carol5208]

I think we all over react at times and the thing about the width between the eye thing...well I just don't get it. What about the hornworms we feed and the silkworms too that are bigger than the width. Basically every feeder I give my chams is bigger than the width between their eyes. They have a way of turning the prey around so it goes down the right way. I feed my chameleons hawksmoths and they eat them just fine. And just for the record, both my chameleons eat supers just like the video. I never really think twice about it!! Maybe it is just me, but I did not see your Jackson in any real danger. JMO

 

[Olimpia]

Maybe it is just me, but I did not see your Jackson in any real danger. JMO

I'm so sorry that you had a scare but I agree with Carol, I don't think so either. I see a cham that is calm and a worm that is nowhere close to obstructing his throat (it was way in the front of his mouth until he chewed and swallowed). If you said he was thrashing I think perhaps the worm might have been bitting his lip, like they will do when a cham misses shooting for the head, and he was just trying to get it off and down. I don't think that the worm's size was inappropriate or dangerous, honestly.

The good thing is that a reptile that gets bitten by a worm usually learns very quickly to aim for the head next time and it won't happen again.

 

[fluxlizard]

I'm so sorry that you had a scare but I agree with Carol, I don't think so either. I see a cham that is calm and a worm that is nowhere close to obstructing his throat (it was way in the front of his mouth until he chewed and swallowed).

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who sort of scratched his head and wondered what all the todo was about? Looks like a cham who got the worm in sideways and had to figure out how to turn it- not a panicking cham who was choking.

I didn't say anything because of course we can't see what happened before the video. Maybe the choking happened then?

Choking will make the cham put nose down toward the ground and he will rapidly thrash from side to side to try and dislodge the item. Once freed, it will be flung hard away from the chameleon- it won't still remain to be swallowed and it will not be alive. It will have been chewed and slobbered too much by the time the lizard gets it far enough in to choke on it.

Basically every feeder I give my chams is bigger than the width between their eyes.

Lizard expert Bert Langerwerf felt that the guideline only needed to apply to calcium deficient lizards from being kept indoors under artificial lighting who did not have the muscular strength to handle the size of prey items that instinct told them to handle in nature every day. Food for thought. Normally I apply the between the eyes rule only to baby lizards, once they are juvenile or adults, my lizards can handle about anything they want to handle. But I have seen overeager chameleon babies choke and thrash and dislodge prey, so I am careful about prey size with those...