I'll try to answer as best I can. Keep in mind these experiences occurred to me in the 1990s- it's been a while. From 2000 or so on, I've had a pair or two at any given time, but not like I kept in the mid 90s. Also keep in mind that although I was keeping up with the latest info back then, the latest info today I have not been keeping up on.
With that in mind-
Be interesting to see some data on fluxlizards females (veilds/panthers) as to weather at max metabolism, they produced more eggs/per clutch and more clutches as one might expect in the wild and had a naturally shorter lifespan as a result, comparable to wild specimans?
1st I am not aware of any studies about the longevity of wild chameleons. Are you? If so, then I would have something more to compare with.
Otherwise, I know that 15 years ago the observations of wild chameleons up to that time hinted that most sun-loving species probably only lived a year or two max in the wild. The thinking at that time was that most of the sun-loving egg laying species matured rapidly and didn't have a long lifespan in the wild for a variety of reasons including parasites and seasonal environmental changes such as heat and drought and periods of heavy rain effecting food and water supply and so forth at times of the year. So the thinking was that a 3 year old panther or veiled of either sex in the wild would be a rare little beast indeed, and that females would probably be lucky to make it to 2 years of age. Indeed it was thought that some populations of some of these species practically died out at certain times of the year, and the incubating eggs were what carried the species forward (I think *some populations* of dilepis, gracilis, panthers, and carpets were thought of like this). That didn't even consider predation which is normally quite high for lizards across the board. IMO this thinking is most likely correct. I do know of a study that found that virtually 100% of a population of wild iguanas never made it past 7 years for similar reasons. We can double that in captivity routinely. That would be about the same for the lifespan of my chameleons back in those early days. The majority of females made it well past 2 and I had females often make it to 3 and some to 4 and a couple to 5 years. I had males make it longer- longest was probably 8.
You also have to remember the mentality was a little different back then too- when I first started veileds practically everyone believed that if you didn't have females breeding as soon as possible they would suffer from egg binding and you would loose them. We know that isn't true today.
After a year or two I practiced limiting feeding of insects, and with veileds I fed lots of salad. I do mean lots- I always had salad available and fed insects 2 or 3 times a week, monitoring the weight of the females, and they will eat lots of salad if you are limiting insects and have allowed them to develop a taste for the salad when they are young. I also allowed some to eat more insects. I don't think I ever found any difference in longevity of the females (to the best of my memory- I was interested in that thinking when it came along), but I do remember thinking that I sometimes found difference in clutch size (not always!) and moreso I found a difference in the number of clutches per year.
Secondly, and this is very important- I am not saying keep the lizard at max metabolism all the time. That's a bigger mistake, IMO than never letting the lizard achieve max metabolism- I am saying let the poor lizard choose to warm up as much as it wants whenever it wants, and let it cool down when it wants as well. (outside of seasonal cycling) Let it have control of it's thermoregulation by expanding the upper limits a little of possible choices. Lizards will use more heat if they need it and less if they need that. Let them choose if you want lizards that can have all their systems functioning in the way that they are supposed to function.
fluxlizard...Were the chameleons you raised with no D3 supplements outside in the summer?
The chams- The first year I had the veileds, yes. Indoors all year. Breeding no problems under chroma 50s. After that I started keeping chameleons outside all summer. So, to be fair, veileds are the only ones that I had for more than a year without access to UVB. So, no. But there were probably 3 or 4 years that I was raising babies indoors during the winter months prior to summer who would never have had access to anything except various chroma 50s, vita-lites, blacklight tubes or some combination of those during the winter without problems. I don't recall seeing any mbd crop up in the hatchlings under any lighting I used. Some of these only had the chroma 50s because I believed the guy at the lighting supply store when he told me they were the same as the vita-lites.
You said..."I was using ge chroma 50s, sometimes combined with ge blacklight tubes"...some black lights (BL) emit UVB.
That is correct. I did specifically look for the ones that were supposed to provide the uvb, but I have no idea what the effectiveness of these are using todays thinking. I imagine not very, or they would be popular today because they are very cheap compared to today's tubes. And I did not always use the blb tubes with the chroma 50s.
I'm one of those people who keep a lower basking temperature for female veileds....its not much lower...low to mid 80's as compared to mid to high 80's...and then in the summer they will get hotter. Those veileds all have lived to be over 6 years old and some of them 7...and they were not thin...so if their immune system or health had suffered as a result of what I did wouldn't they have died earlier or shown some signs of bad health/low immune system?
I am very impressed with your results.
For comparison of low and high though- I was providing basking sites of around 100 degrees (and they used them sometimes even when ambient temp in the room was in the mid 80s!), so low to mid 80s to me is much lower, not just a little. I have often wondered about a winter cooling for these guys and how that might effect clutch size and longevity, so I am very interested in your results.
I am not against seasonal changes when appropriate- I have to have seasonal changes for many of my lizards. I don't keep them operating like it's summer year round because they don't come from places where it is summer year round.
Also, please note, that I believe that good full spectrum lighting will compensate for some temperature and nutritional errors.
I don't mean that you are making errors when I say that- you have a better track record on longevity than me.
But it could be why you don't have problems. And others doing the same.
The OP was about whether cham skin could absorb uv and whether they could effectively use dietary d3.
The temp thing is just meant to explain why I think lab results can differ from what is possible. My point- if you've got bearded dragons sitting on hot rocks or iguanas being heated by a room heater, and you conclude that they cannot effectively absorb vitd3 from a food source or supplement, you may be wrong just because your lizards aren't operating as effectively as possible because of your setup. And that may be why my igs and beardeds had no problems using a dietary source. And while I haven't done with chameleons what I did with the igs and beardeds I did have some casual observational evidence and I doubt they are very different as a group than other lizards when it comes to basic things like whether they can utilize vit.d3 (tried several nutritional things with beardeds back in the day trying to learn more about them- I even had a group of 100% vegetarians from baby to egg laying adults producing babies of their own).
I do think that when your animals warm up in the summer, they are better able to use the nutrients they take in and they are better able to fight disease than when you are keeping them cooler in the winter.
I don't have the experience of trying those temps myself, but my feeling is that your summer temps may be as important as your winter temps for the longevity of your animals. One without the other might not be as successful.
Have you ever kept them cooler like that year round for a few years time to compare?
The lower temps year round are what I find interesting and the idea that these are kept constantly cool like that for years is what makes me uncomfortable, and what I thought people were recommending nowadays.
As well as the problems I already mentioned about determining proper d3 dosage, these lights have benefits that probably go well beyond the production of safe d3 such as the ability of the lizards to perceive color the same way they see things in sunlight, psychological benefits, and even probable physiological benefits (like stimulating the brain to make glands function normally). So, everybody reading this, please do not think that I am recommending you not use these lamps and go to providing d3 through nutrition only. I am not. I am only saying that I know that it can be done in other lizards that were once thought to be impossible to provide it in this way (maybe still thought? I'm not up on iguana stuff these days) and that I doubt that chameleons are any different.
Sorry so long.
I'll be thinking about that info for a long time.
thought id post back to say what ever that care sheet said about a chams skin reflecting uv il still be using 1 no matter what
