DaSlackMan
Member
Not sure if anyone has posted this article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30334827/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30334827/
Chameleons can gauge vitamin D levels, regulate UV exposure accordingly
- Thread starter DaSlackMan
- Start date
pba110
Established Member
sorry for the double post but I wanted to mention that my cham doesn't chill by the lights much. He's usually on the second level of the terrarium in the shade of the umbrella plant. I supplement every other day with ca + vitd. Very light dustings. I'm wondering if this might be evidence to cut it back a bit?
he's 4 months old and seems to be very healthy.
he's 4 months old and seems to be very healthy.
jojackson
New Member
Yes, I have the same thought, Mine spends a healthy amount of time basking but a normal amount throughout the day. Im not sure it nessesarily means a cham will stop basking if its not getting enough D3, but I would think more. Likewise if its getting too much D3 , Would it bask more to metabolise it? Since they get D3 via basking (matabolised) if it was getting too much via dusting it would be expelling unmetabolised D3 no? (along with other signs). A matter Of balance, Nature knows best. 
pba110
Established Member
My understanding from human physiology is that D3 is needed to absorb calcium from the intestine. The more circulating D3, the more calcium is absorbed. So, if the theory about chams regulating D3 levels to regulate Ca absorption is true, they would "sun" less to form less D3 to allow the calcium to pass through them. This is why too much d3 with calcium is bad b/c they can no longer regulate it themselves right?
jojackson
New Member
Im not sure that applies, they still need to thermoregulate, wherever they do that means UV exposure, If they need more D3 they bask more going by the story there, but if normal temp related basking metabolises enough D3 to absorbe all avail calcium and theres too much in the diet, then they will have problems as I understand it. I dont know if they use dietry D3 and D3 derived from Uv the same way?
jojackson
New Member
Well, yes and no. They really need both, but most tubes span a length that allows that.
Heres some info about the process
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm
Heres some info about the process
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm
warpdrive
Avid Member
Yes, I have the same thought, Mine spends a healthy amount of time basking but a normal amount throughout the day. Im not sure it nessesarily means a cham will stop basking if its not getting enough D3, but I would think more. Likewise if its getting too much D3 , Would it bask more to metabolise it? Since they get D3 via basking (matabolised) if it was getting too much via dusting it would be expelling unmetabolised D3 no? (along with other signs). A matter Of balance, Nature knows best.
expelling the extra D3? no
in fact it has been stated in "Chameleons-their care and breeding" (page 59)...
"many of these animals were experiecing sever helth problem as a result and sometimes die after only a couple of months of overdoesing on vitamin D3. chameleons that died were autopsied and found to have all the clasic symtoms of vitamin D poisoning. in some cases organs such as the kidneys were calcified and almost bone like, intestines were also becoming hardened and nonfunctional."
Harry
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jojackson
New Member
It would seem that without a vet testing blood, it would be a matter of guesswork as to exactly how much D3 your cham was ingesting from 'x' amount of dusted insects, over a given period, and ofcourse dependant largely on the strength of the particular suppliment brand you were using.
How many honestly have a vet check D3 levels regularly?
I use what I consider a very small amount of suppliments every 3 days or so
and get my cham outside daily.
Based on his appetite, activity and general vigour and appearance, along with
his agility and strong grip, consistant weight gain and growth, I guage him to be doing exceptionally well in the health stakes and as such Im loathe to mess with his current shedual.
Everything seems to be in good balance. If I now back off the D3 because of what you wrote above, the effect will not be immediately apparent, which does not nessesarily indicate that current schedual is too much, and by the time any effects Are apparent, he may be in bad shape from too little, and then begins the whole process of correction, Not something I want to mess with. None of us 'live' at our local vet, if your cham is happy with no sign of ill health, you dont need to panic and start changing everything your doing.
I have seen alot of reptiles of different kinds suffering various extremes of MBD over the years. Kinked tails/spines, some horrendously so, soft wonky legs, soft misshappen jaws that dont meet top/bottom.
Many of these animals died. (not mine btw) This is not something im willing to risk in a species with delicate balance and rapid growth rate (cham).
I err on the side of caution.
That said, I have yet to encounter the reverse in reptiles in my country,
perhaps Herps are hardier here?
If i was to change my suppliment schedual, Id be quitting the D3 supp altogether and housing him outside. Unfortunately winter approaches here and this is not an option yet.
Reptile Science/Vet medicine is a terrific thing and generally knowledge gained in this feild allows us to so much more easily keep reptiles healthy these days than was the case years ago, but balance applies to all things.
In particular a balance between Nature and artificial means. Things such as artificial Uv lighting and Suppliments should compliment, not totally replace Nature.
For example, years ago I too was a 'Reefer' (keeper of marine fish), The hobby is very similar in that balance is often lacking (more through nessecity in this cae though) and many keepers chose to 'go with the times' embracing tecknology to the max.
It was noticed that keepers who spent oodles $$$$ and had tanks bristling with artifice, messed with them so much trying to get things 'perfect' that they suffered more (expensive) losses than those who went 'minimum', simplified and obtained clean natural seawater.
Just food for thought.
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warpdrive
Avid Member
oh, I totaly agree with you Jojackson.
each person has to "judge" just what is needed for thier chams in all things including supliments with D3.
my point was that as long as you are taking him outside almost every day durring the warmer months, there should be little need for a boost of D3.
after all, he should be getting his D3 from his lightbulb as well as the rays of the sun when you take him outside.
chams are smart.
I agree that they will bask more around the UVB bulb when needed.
(...and hide away or stay away from the UVB bulb when not needed.)
in your case, you should watch or see just how much he stays near such a bulb and suplement what you feel is best depending on the results.
of course, young or babys (as well as gravid females) need more calcium for bone growth, thus more D3.
but personaly, I fear that adding too much supliments can be far more harmful then too little...as the cham can always bask more under the UVB if needed, but it's hard to excape D3 overdosages.
again, I'm not in any way saying you should change anything that you are doing.
I think that you know best just what your cham needs, so I'm not going to say that you should change anything.
what I am saying is that overdoses of D3 is toxic and can lead to death, and should be looked at like we look at pre formed vitamin A.
in other words, if your cham lives outside, or is getting alot of sun almost each day by taking him outside, then there is almost no reason to suplement D3 as the cham is getting more then enough from the sun's rays (and his lighting if housed indoors).
just my thoughts,
Harry
each person has to "judge" just what is needed for thier chams in all things including supliments with D3.
my point was that as long as you are taking him outside almost every day durring the warmer months, there should be little need for a boost of D3.
after all, he should be getting his D3 from his lightbulb as well as the rays of the sun when you take him outside.
chams are smart.
I agree that they will bask more around the UVB bulb when needed.
(...and hide away or stay away from the UVB bulb when not needed.)
in your case, you should watch or see just how much he stays near such a bulb and suplement what you feel is best depending on the results.
of course, young or babys (as well as gravid females) need more calcium for bone growth, thus more D3.
but personaly, I fear that adding too much supliments can be far more harmful then too little...as the cham can always bask more under the UVB if needed, but it's hard to excape D3 overdosages.
again, I'm not in any way saying you should change anything that you are doing.
I think that you know best just what your cham needs, so I'm not going to say that you should change anything.
what I am saying is that overdoses of D3 is toxic and can lead to death, and should be looked at like we look at pre formed vitamin A.
in other words, if your cham lives outside, or is getting alot of sun almost each day by taking him outside, then there is almost no reason to suplement D3 as the cham is getting more then enough from the sun's rays (and his lighting if housed indoors).
just my thoughts,
Harry
