Chameleon School Website

[CasqueAbove]

I

I love how you think all people are gonna read through everything though... Have you not seen the threads with dying chams even threads where we have provided direct feedback prior but they do not make the changes we say???? I mean lets be honest about 25% are going to read everything, 25% are going to read half of the info, 25% are going to skim through, and then you have the 25% that will look at the pictures...

IMO when you can simply post a correct link with image that clearly states veiled tested is in the end going to serve more people.

You are a reader/researcher. You look into everything. MOST DO NOT. That is honestly my issue with this other content being used here within the forum.

You also have a Panther that will never eat its plants. You do not know what it is to deal with consistent plant eating. I still worry even with the "veiled tested" plants that I do use. While it does not immediately kill him, I have no idea what possible long term issues he could have or potential damage to organ function. Because this has not been studied.


Now then as far as chameleonschool.com having incorrect info....

https://www.chameleonschool.com/chameleon-diet/

WRONG INFO ON SUPPLEMENTS> they say calcium without D3 instead of Calcium with d3 every other week. Link above and image where I highlighted below.

View attachment 303953
They also suggest Butter worms... And do not say a thing about the potential for allergic reaction. They only thing he says is they are "high in fat so treats only"

Their recommended feeding is 15 feeders twice a day until 6 months then reducing to 10 medium feeders every day. Then 6 full sized insects every 2-3 days for 12 months and older....

Ok so lets talk about how inaccurate this is. Veileds should only be fed 2-3 insects 3 days a week. So total for the week is 6-9. If I were to feed Beman his plan of 6 full sized dubia that would be 18 or 12 full sized a week. He would be so overweight on this persons advice. Also Beman would not be able to take down a full sized dubia without gagging for 5 minutes.

He makes no mention of females needing to be fed differently. ALSO NOT ALL SPECIES ARE THE SAME. Feeding requirements change from a veiled to a Parsons. And size of feeders as well.

So this is all off 1 page of his site... Just 1 And I found incorrect supplementing, feeding amounts, and feeder recommendation that can cause allergic reactions.



While this person attempts to provide correct info this is strictly an affiliate pay website. Everything he links are affiliate links where he gets paid for every person that clicks the links and orders. It is horribly laid out with sub par content.


Another thing I find extremely interesting is this site was created in 2021. So is this your site that you run and make money off of? Because I can not figure out why you would be posting it and recommending it over other sites that are totally accurate like Chameleon academy.

View attachment 303954

I agree so much. The human nature. We tried to account for this in my site. We know most will only read the first sentences. We tried to write this way. This is also one of Pete’s issues. That is why his specs seem more stringent. Example The logic is if I tell you it needs 100% humidity you will shoot for that and say well 80% is close. So if we give the minimum 70% people will assume 55 or 60% is good. This is human nature.

 

[Beman]

I agree so much. The human nature. We tried to account for this in my site. We know most will only read the first sentences. We tried to write this way. This is also one of Pete’s issues. That is why his specs seem more stringent. Example The logic is if I tell you it needs 100% humidity you will shoot for that and say well 80% is close. So if we give the minimum 70% people will assume 55 or 60% is good. This is human nature.

Exactly... Which is why a site has to be thorough and correct because you never know what sections people are going to read. I mean I have done multiple husbandry reviews here. Where I give exact feedback on what has to change. It has happened several times where the people just do not read my feedback. They do bits and pieces and then come back a few months later with a cham that has MBD. All because they chose to ignore feedback on the UVB fixture and distance. Totally unavoidable but it happens.

This is just a human thing as you said our nature. There will always be those that will read every word and stick to it like its a bible and those that do bits and pieces and think it is good enough.

But providing links to sub par sources for information is very annoying to me. We are supposed to be helping people here and providing external links that have their own issues irritates the hell out of me. I watched how this site started getting used and given out by newbies all because someone else recommended it to them.

And recommending plant lists that do not specify if it is veiled tested to those that have Veileds honestly pisses me off. It is one thing to use plants for your own cham because that is your risk you take on, but to recommend to another and to put someone else's chameleon at risk is shameful. And then there are those that do not and have not owned a Veiled, that truly do not understand the damage they will do to their plants. How they will strip them of their leaves. But they recommend lists that should never be given to newbies. Just frustrates me because the newbie assumes the plants are all ok because that was recommended to them. I use plants that are not on the list for Beman. But I am not out there telling everyone to go use it. Like you, the plant I use he actually does not eat. But this is my chameleon and my risk and in the two and a half years I have had him he has never attempted to eat this plant I use. But he eats pothos, money trees, and umbrella plants which are all on the Veiled tested list from Chameleon Academy.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I

I love how you think all people are gonna read through everything though...

Did you miss the part where I said, "if one only reads"?

Have you not seen the threads with dying chams even threads where we have provided direct feedback prior but they do not make the changes we say???? I mean lets be honest about 25% are going to read everything, 25% are going to read half of the info, 25% are going to skim through, and then you have the 25% that will look at the pictures...

IMO when you can simply post a correct link with image that clearly states veiled tested is in the end going to serve more people.

But you just said people aren't going to read that. I love how you think they're going to read what you think is important, but nothing else. I try to give people more credit than that. Like any teacher, I try to give them the information they ask for, but if they don't/won't avail themselves of it, we can't make them.

You are a reader/researcher. You look into everything. MOST DO NOT. That is honestly my issue with this other content being used here within the forum.

Then I would say you have an issue with the vast majority of what's in the archives that shows up on every google search.

You also have a Panther that will never eat its plants. You do not know what it is to deal with consistent plant eating.

That's as much BS as telling me I didn't know anything when I hadn't yet gotten my cham. Not everyone learns the same way. Some learn by sight, some by hearing, some by doing, some by reading, and a very few seem incapable of learning. I happen to learn by many methods, but more by reading than by others. I've known this since I was tested for it in middle school, and our teachers there were well aware of it because they would teach by all three—sight, hearing, and reading. I've had college professors who told us not to take notes, because someone taking notes isn't listening to/absorbing what's being said. They said it was more important that we listen & see/watch than write. Instead, they handed out notes at the beginning or end of class.

On top of that, I deal daily with another lizard that DOES eat (and otherwise destroy) his plants, so I have to be very aware of what's toxic and what's not. We're currently going through the same with another reptile expected imminently, who is a vegetarian.

Furthermore, this chameleon isn't my first rodeo; I've been keeping reptiles on & off for the better part of 60 years.

So please don't purport to tell me condescendingly that I do not know what it is to deal with consistent plant eating.

I still worry even with the "veiled tested" plants that I do use. While it does not immediately kill him, I have no idea what possible long term issues he could have or potential damage to organ function. Because this has not been studied.

That's pretty much what I said.

Now then as far as chameleonschool.com having incorrect info....

https://www.chameleonschool.com/chameleon-diet/

WRONG INFO ON SUPPLEMENTS> they say calcium without D3 instead of Calcium with d3 every other week. Link above and image where I highlighted below.

View attachment 303953

Yes, I just read that. It was obviously a typo; why would he give 2 different directions for the same supplement. If someone bothered to leave a comment instead of just complaining about it someplace, he'd have the opportunity to correct it and improve his site.

They also suggest Butter worms... And do not say a thing about the potential for allergic reaction. They only thing he says is they are "high in fat so treats only"

What's the percentage of chameleons that are allergic to butter worms, and what are the risks?
I find this from a member purporting to be a Biologist and Ecologist: (Emphasis mine)

I think they're safe, but it is true that a very small few have experienced problems. But tend to think that because it's so uncommon that it has to be like a peanut allergy, where yes peanuts are safe unless you're the unlucky few that swell up. I say allergy but it's not clear what is causing the reaction.

At any rate, the effects aren't fatal and not permanent. They seem to develop a black rash around the mouth that eventually goes away, apparently.


https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/are-butterworms-safe.122064/#post-1077114

Dave didn't recommend butterworms—they were part of a chart on nutritional information of various feeders, and he included a link to his source. Also, he states on (nearly?) every page that his information comes from his own 10 yrs. of experience raising his veiled chameleon.

Again, no comments left to point this out OR to alert others reading that page.

Their recommended feeding is 15 feeders twice a day until 6 months then reducing to 10 medium feeders every day. Then 6 full sized insects every 2-3 days for 12 months and older....

Ok so lets talk about how inaccurate this is. Veileds should only be fed 2-3 insects 3 days a week. So total for the week is 6-9. If I were to feed Beman his plan of 6 full sized dubia that would be 18 or 12 full sized a week. He would be so overweight on this persons advice. Also Beman would not be able to take down a full sized dubia without gagging for 5 minutes.

So far, it's a difference of opinion, and IMO, you're both entitled to that. Dave's chameleon lived over 10 years. I think that's pretty remarkable; he must have been doing something right.

I may be mistaken, but I get the feeling you may not have read the rest of what he had to say on feeding, where he says:

I talk more about how much to feed a chameleon here.

He makes no mention of females needing to be fed differently. ALSO NOT ALL SPECIES ARE THE SAME. Feeding requirements change from a veiled to a Parsons. And size of feeders as well.

I'll give you that. But it's pretty clear to me he's talking about his own experiences with his male veiled chameleon.

So this is all off 1 page of his site... Just 1 And I found incorrect supplementing, feeding amounts, and feeder recommendation that can cause allergic reactions.

Did you leave any comments?

While this person attempts to provide correct info this is strictly an affiliate pay website. Everything he links are affiliate links where he gets paid for every person that clicks the links and orders. It is horribly laid out with sub par content.

What are you talking about? I just clicked every link on that page.

1. PDF source of the nutritional chart​

2. Link to Amazon page for product. How many times have you or I or anyone else here linked to Amazon pages? We don't get paid that I know of. Is it possible for a member to have such an arrangement without anyone knowing? IDK​

3. Links to page about chameleon illnesses​

4. Links to article on supplementation​

5. Links to article on how much to feed​

6. Links to article on fruits & vegetables for veileds (I don't agree they should be fed f&v, but that may be opinion)​

7. Article on why chameleon may not be eating​

8-13. Links to other articles​

So ONE out of THIRTEEN links goes to a product. That's not "everything he links".

Another thing I find extremely interesting is this site was created in 2021. So is this your site that you run and make money off of? Because I can not figure out why you would be posting it and recommending it over other sites that are totally accurate like Chameleon academy.

View attachment 303954

1. It's not MY site. I run no site and make no money off of any site.​

2. I haven't recommended it over any site. I have recommended the plant list along with other plant lists I have found to be chameleon-safe.​

3. As I've already said​

I have verified that each of the plants on Chameleon School's list has been listed as safe on several other lists/sites, including this forum. Many are on both Bill's and Petr's lists and on many many more.

If there were a single plant on that list that I found were not chameleon-safe, I would stop recommending it.

 

[ERKleRose]

Why are still defending the website when it isn't accurate? If you link the plant list for a newbie panther or jacksons owner, they'll think the site is a good, accurate source of info when it isn't. And/or a new veiled owner might see it as well and think the same thing, along with thinking the plant list is safe for them, too. Wanting to have the last word shouldn't be more important than the safety of other's chameleons, especially newbies, who sometimes are making enough mistakes already.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Why are still defending the website when it isn't accurate?

Because it's accurate enough, there is at least as much to complain about here, and what some are calling "inaccurate" amounts to little more than difference of opinion.

Do you really think someone is going to go to the trouble of registering here, ask one question, look at that one last list out of 4 without even glancing at the other 3, and then never coming back here again?

Every plant on that list checks out, either on one of the other 3 lists, or here, or some combination.

 

[ERKleRose]

Because it's accurate enough

It's not, and why would you want something "accurate enough"? The info on the website contradicts itself and doesn't provide correct info for one to keep a chameleon without problems coming up. The site is really there to make money, not help. If a Chameleon Enthusiast, the top type of member on here, posts a website, people will believe what is posted.

Do you really think someone is going to go to the trouble of registering here, ask one question, look at that one last list out of 4 without even glancing at the other 3, and then never coming back here again?

The problem is posting something that isn't correct. Why would you risk another person's chameleon's health? You're basically saying let me post something that is "accurate enough" and then help them when they come back with issues later on! Why do that when you can give them correct info from the get go? It doesn't make sense.

The accuracy of that website isn't difference of opinion. Their info can and will cause problems. This isn't a case of "I do things differently, and it works for me".

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

How about if every time you or Beman make a mistake—typo, misstatement, contradiction/difference with anyone else's opinions, dotting is and crossing ts, grammatical errors involving there, their, or they're, using then instead of than.... someone goes out on some forum and declares the information on this forum "inaccurate", and tells people not to listen to anything you say—even when you're correct? Would that be fair? No, and neither are you being.

If you had left this guy feedback and his response was to tell you to micturate up a hawser, I could see your point. But AFAIK, NOBODY has done that, or given him any chance or opportunity to defend himself, explain, or make corrections.

And please stop with the straw man arguments and fear-mongering.

This isn't a case of "I do things differently, and it works for me".

It sounds to me like it is. Why would someone even start something like this?

 

[ERKleRose]

How about if every time you or Beman make a mistake—typo, misstatement, contradiction/difference with anyone else's opinions, dotting is and crossing ts, grammatical errors involving there, their, or they're, using then instead of than.... someone goes out on some forum and declares the information on this forum "inaccurate", and tells people not to listen to anything you say—even when you're correct? Would that be fair? No, and neither are you being.

What are you talking about? I'm talking about him telling people to get 10.0 T5 HO bulbs for veileds and panthers without telling them the proper distances, telling people to raise their humidity and to mist their chams when they are shedding, telling people that 50% is the minimum humidity level needed for veileds and that 30% is way too low for any chameleon species, telling people to fog during the day and that it can be the main and only source of water, telling people to scrape off shed with wet q-tips, along with other things, like that jacksons eat plants. That's only from just a few of the articles on there.

 

[salty dog]

I experimented with my panthers..I put potatoe vine in viv for 8 months now, it grows well.. no harm to my boy..

 

[Beman]

Did you miss the part where I said, "if one only reads"?


But you just said people aren't going to read that. I love how you think they're going to read what you think is important, but nothing else. I try to give people more credit than that. Like any teacher, I try to give them the information they ask for, but if they don't/won't avail themselves of it, we can't make them.


Then I would say you have an issue with the vast majority of what's in the archives that shows up on every google search.


That's as much BS as telling me I didn't know anything when I hadn't yet gotten my cham. Not everyone learns the same way. Some learn by sight, some by hearing, some by doing, some by reading, and a very few seem incapable of learning. I happen to learn by many methods, but more by reading than by others. I've known this since I was tested for it in middle school, and our teachers there were well aware of it because they would teach by all three—sight, hearing, and reading. I've had college professors who told us not to take notes, because someone taking notes isn't listening to/absorbing what's being said. They said it was more important that we listen & see/watch than write. Instead, they handed out notes at the beginning or end of class.

On top of that, I deal daily with another lizard that DOES eat (and otherwise destroy) his plants, so I have to be very aware of what's toxic and what's not. We're currently going through the same with another reptile expected imminently, who is a vegetarian.

Furthermore, this chameleon isn't my first rodeo; I've been keeping reptiles on & off for the better part of 60 years.

So please don't purport to tell me condescendingly that I do not know what it is to deal with consistent plant eating.


That's pretty much what I said.


Yes, I just read that. It was obviously a typo; why would he give 2 different directions for the same supplement. If someone bothered to leave a comment instead of just complaining about it someplace, he'd have the opportunity to correct it and improve his site.


What's the percentage of chameleons that are allergic to butter worms, and what are the risks?
I find this from a member purporting to be a Biologist and Ecologist: (Emphasis mine)

Dave didn't recommend butterworms—they were part of a chart on nutritional information of various feeders, and he included a link to his source. Also, he states on (nearly?) every page that his information comes from his own 10 yrs. of experience raising his veiled chameleon.

Again, no comments left to point this out OR to alert others reading that page.


So far, it's a difference of opinion, and IMO, you're both entitled to that. Dave's chameleon lived over 10 years. I think that's pretty remarkable; he must have been doing something right.

I may be mistaken, but I get the feeling you may not have read the rest of what he had to say on feeding, where he says:



I'll give you that. But it's pretty clear to me he's talking about his own experiences with his male veiled chameleon.


Did you leave any comments?


What are you talking about? I just clicked every link on that page.

1. PDF source of the nutritional chart​

2. Link to Amazon page for product. How many times have you or I or anyone else here linked to Amazon pages? We don't get paid that I know of. Is it possible for a member to have such an arrangement without anyone knowing? IDK​

3. Links to page about chameleon illnesses​

4. Links to article on supplementation​

5. Links to article on how much to feed​

6. Links to article on fruits & vegetables for veileds (I don't agree they should be fed f&v, but that may be opinion)​

7. Article on why chameleon may not be eating​

8-13. Links to other articles​

So ONE out of THIRTEEN links goes to a product. That's not "everything he links".

1. It's not MY site. I run no site and make no money off of any site.​

2. I haven't recommended it over any site. I have recommended the plant list along with other plant lists I have found to be chameleon-safe.​

3. As I've already said​

If there were a single plant on that list that I found were not chameleon-safe, I would stop recommending it.

Honestly you frustrate the hell out of me. The you think you are always right and everyone else is wrong thing gets really old. This is why I have you blocked because I can not handle how you act like only you know what your talking about.

And I am sorry but you do not have a Veiled and never have had one. You have only had a Panther for what 6 months now? I do not care what other reptiles you have had. We are talking about chameleons. We are talking about the risks for Veiled chameleons. We are talking about inaccurate info. But I forgot you are the all knowing one with 60 years of reptile experience and we should all just shut up, right?

You are always confrontational to other members that dare challenge you at all. It gets old and extremely frustrating. I do not need to waste my time with some crap site leaving comments when there are better sites out there that I do refer people to. Why don't you go tell Dave about the errors? Since you are the one linking the site.

 

[Beman]

I am so very sorry to everyone for all my grammatical errors. Clearly I do not know English and it must be pointed out so I can be properly scolded and belittled publicly for my lack of education. Everyone now please take a turn. I am sure the difference between your and you're is very traumatizing for you to have to read. My lack of commas in the appropriate places and the hardship it causes for you to understand my sentences.
My deepest apologies for any harm I have caused and will continue to cause.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

What are you talking about? I'm talking about him telling people to get 10.0 T5 HO bulbs for veileds and panthers without telling them the proper distances, telling people to raise their humidity and to mist their chams when they are shedding, telling people that 50% is the minimum humidity level needed for veileds and that 30% is way too low for any chameleon species, telling people to fog during the day and that it can be the main and only source of water, telling people to scrape off shed with wet q-tips, along with other things, like that jacksons eat plants. That's only from just a few of the articles on there.

Now that's specific.

My impression of the site since I first saw it was that it was very much like a blog, and every page I've seen includes the owner's disclaimer that he's passing along what he learned, and hopes readers find something useful.

I find the plant list useful, and worthy of passing along.

What I don't find useful is tearing down someone's hard work behind their back without giving them a chance to correct errors or improve advice.

A member here started an informative site, got lots of feedback, and that site is much better for it.
Why not help the guy at Chameleon School the same way instead of just bitterly and negatively tearing him down? SMH

 

[ERKleRose]

Now that's specific.

Did you not read through the site before recommending it?

What I don't find useful is tearing down someone's hard work behind their back without giving them a chance to correct errors or improve advice.

A member here started an informative site, got lots of feedback, and that site is much better for it.
Why not help the guy at Chameleon School the same way instead of just bitterly and negatively tearing him down? SMH

There’s too much info to correct for it to be worth it when there’s other better sites, plus it’s an affiliate website, which means he probably won’t change much/anything at all so he can keep the links up. Why not you be the one to give him feedback? Plus, I don’t see you wanting to correct every single bad chameleon info website out there, either.

Whoever that member is probably came on here for feedback, unlike the dude from The Chameleon School. What am I bitter about? Also, I’m not tearing him down, just not wanting to recommend his website

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Did you not read through the site before recommending it?

I didn't recommend the site; I recommended the plant list, which I've already said twice I verified.

Why not you be the one to give him feedback?

I don't have any issues with the plant list.

 

[ERKleRose]

I didn't recommend the site; I recommended the plant list, which I've already said twice I verified.

You post and recommend a link to the website, which is for the plant list, but is to the website nonetheless. The issue is the website isn’t safe to recommend, and lots of people have chimed in saying the plant list isn’t, either. If you post it, since you are a top member here, people will think it’s a good source of info, which it’s not. Unless you do a disclaimer saying you only like the plant list and everything else is incorrect, why post it? And why post it with a disclaimer when you can post links with safe and accurate info?

I don't have any issues with the plant list.

You got onto us on here saying the entire website was good and safe and saying give the guy feedback, so why change your answer now?

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

You post and recommend a link to the website, which is for the plant list, but is to the website nonetheless. The issue is the website isn’t safe to recommend, and lots of people have chimed in saying the plant list isn’t, either. If you post it, since you are a top member here, people will think it’s a good source of info, which it’s not. Unless you do a disclaimer saying you only like the plant list and everything else is incorrect, why post it? And why post it with a disclaimer when you can post links with safe and accurate info?

You got onto us on here saying the entire website was good and safe and saying give the guy feedback, so why change your answer now?

Whoa. Who said the the plant list isn't safe—other than not bearing ostensible labels of "veiled tested" which is based on negative evidence?

"Top member"? I've certainly never made—and never would make a claim like that.

As a source of information, the site is no better nor worse than most chameleon blogs I've read, including some here.
People here will go to great lengths defending that different people have different ways of doing things. I'm not going to put anyone on the spot with direct quotes, but to the effect, e.g. "Like some items of husbandry, there are different ways of doing things." but when someone blogs about what's worked for them to keep a chameleon alive & healthy for TEN YEARS, it's "bad information" because it doesn't agree with YOUR or a few other peoples' personal views of how things should be done.

You got onto us on here saying the entire website was good and safe

Now THAT'S inaccurate information. Where did I say that?

IMO, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[JacksJill]

I say this as a fellow member and not a moderator. Maybe you two should just let this go. You have both made your points of view clear and done so politely. You both do quite a bit to help others. We all don't need to agree on everything.

 

[Beman]