Chameleon on it's side, bottom of cage

[jannb]

Though the pics aren't very clear, this looks like a male. What you saw might have been his hemipenes showing. His casque looks too large for a female, and the body doesn't look fat enough to have been a gravid female. Both males and females can be equally "moody".

So this Zilla blacklight was on at night? Chams need at least a 10 degree drop in temp at night and NO visible light showing. They have full color vision and visible light and too warm temps keep them from resting properly.

Thank for your help here Allison. You have much better eyesight than me.
I kept looking for spurs on the heel in that first picture. It's sad when something like this happens and you never really understand why. Does now sound like maybe a prolapse or the start of one.

 

[Carlton]

Yes, I'm sorry guys, pictures were taken in haste with my work computer.

Yes that Black Heat Light was on at night.

In hindsight, he would like to climb up to the very top corner of the cage when resting. Almost as if he was escaping the radiational heating from that Night Light.

Could he have had a blockage? He seemed to be in pain during the final event.

Michele said he wouldn't even drink water the past 24 hours.

I'm going to study as much as I can about this.

I'm not sure she's ready to try again. At least not until we can educate ourselves as well as we did with the rabbits.

So, I guess the closest we can come to a conclusion could be a combination of things...overheating, no metabolic rest at night, probably some chronic dehydration which can lead to hemipene or intestinal prolapses (which then can cause damage to the organs, infection, etc.).

 

[TheEricJ]

Sorry for your loss. If he didn't have any UVB for 6 months he more than likely had MBD. He may have even had a bone fracture from what you described. UVB is essential for proper chameleon health. I would also leave off the night time heat bulb. They benefit from the temperature spike in the am. This is how they live in the wild too. Hot during the day, cool at night.

I made mistakes with my first chameleon years ago too. I learned from my mistakes and did TONS of research to make sure I'd never make the same mistakes again. Just make sure to do your research and get the proper setup in order before getting another. You can always ask questions on here anytime you need help.

 

[carol5208]

I agree having no UVB probably led to your chameleon's death. I am sorry for your loss, but research is a must when getting a new pet. You cannot always rely on who you bought it from to give you the correct info. If you decide to get another one, you have found the right place to learn about their care. Lots of great people on here with years of experience.

 

[mjlabadia]

Yes, I agree and we are so happy we found this forum. I'll give Michele a little time. We both are animal lovers. I'm just a little distracted after starting new business.
Thank you all for your help.

 

[jannb]

Another thing you should do is a good through cleaning of the cage and everything in it before you put another cham in there. 60 volume peroxide, the kind you buy at a hair supply store like Sally's is the best thing to use. Mix 50/50 with water and spray we use a pressure washer. Let set for 15 to 20 minutes and rinse, rinse and rinse. I then let them set in the sun for a few hours. I recommend the peroxide because it kills everything, even the dreaded parasite coccidia.

 

[charly1954]

Sorry for your loss. I have never had any reptile and thought about getting a Chameleon. I have been doing research about Chameleons for the past month or so and I didn't realize what goes into keeping one as a pet until I read this thread. I found this thread cause in the last week my crickets(all sizes) have been dying and I can't figure out why. No deaths for the last 1-1/2 months since they started hatching, until now. I do not use powder calcium, I grind up dog food, fish flakes, oatmeal, and egg shells for food plus veggies/apples. I know if they get to much calcium their exoskeleton gets to hard and they can't shed, maybe thats the problem so I took it out.

I have had dogs all my life and with a reptile it sounds like you have to have the knowledge of a Vet to keep one alive and healthy. And to spend big bucks for a good setup plus the cost of the Chameleons, I'm not rich and can't afford to cost only to have it die like OP's did, so guess I'm gona have to pass on a Chameleon. Maybe some other type of reptile that's less costly and more hardy, any suggestions?

I'm 61 semi retired with allot of time on my hands and was looking for something to fill the void. I been raising crickets for fishing and thought I might as well get a pet to feed the crickets too. Also I have young grandkids that I think would enjoy watching a pet reptile.

 

[SocialNumb]

If you grind egg shells you're pretty much using powdered calcium. Or am I missing something? Could be why the crickets are kicking it?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes, I agree and we are so happy we found this forum. I'll give Michele a little time. We both are animal lovers. I'm just a little distracted after starting new business.
Thank you all for your help.

I'm really sorry for your and your wife's loss.

Unless you had done some kind of a necropsy, there is no way of knowing why he died.

I don't agree with a lot of the posters suggesting it is because of a lack of UVB, light at night or too high temps.

Your chameleon died suddenly and rather dramatically. Something might have been going on before (as evidenced by your wife noticing he didn't drink) but maybe not.

I looked at the pictures you posted and although the pictures are not good quality, he looked a good weight and his legs looked straight. Based on those pictures he looked in pretty good condition. Except he died.

The hemipenes (those wormy things you described coming out of his vent) were probably extended because as he was dying, everything relaxes. That's not why he died.

While no UV light will cause a problem in the long term, it is possible to compensate, at least for awhile, with Vitamin D and calcium. Metabolic bone disease isn't going to kill him suddenly, either. Death from MBD is like death from osteoporosis--their bones just break and can't support the body or their is a severe calcium shortage in the blood and muscles don't work. MBD isn't sudden death either.

Incorrect lighting and temperatures (as long as the temperatures aren't so hot the animal dies of overheating directly) won't kill suddenly either. They kill by stressing the animal and the stress suppresses the immune system causing an illness that kills the animal. Again, if an animal is ill, they don't seem fine or reasonably fine and then just keel over dead.

It is possible that he had a blocked gut from the bark substrate I think you mentioned having, but again, that isn't the kind of thing where he is just going to suddenly fall over on his side and die. A blocked gut takes days and days to kill (unless there is a rupture) and there is a tremendous amount of pain.

There are so many things that could have killed your chameleon suddenly like that. A dear friend, a breeder, lost an adult suddenly from a hemorrhage in the lungs. Suddenly, out of the blue, this healthy female became critically ill and died in a few hours. He did the necropsy himself and found the lungs full of blood. Why did she bleed out in the lungs is the unanswered question, but it was not from illness (unless maybe a tumor that ruptured) and it wasn't from poor husbandry. It was sudden and he is still in shock just like you are.

Something else was going on. I think your wife should be comforted to know that she didn't kill him because of poor lighting or temperatures or other husbandry errors. Maybe he had a heart attack. Maybe he had an aneurysm. You just don't know, but I don't think it was because of poor husbandry. It sounds like some kind of a catastrophic event for your poor chameleon.

Please give your wife a hug for me. I know how really distressing to have a loved animal die so unexpectedly.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I hate it when I don't notice when a thread is old.......

 

[brownie64]

I hate it when I don't notice when a thread is old.......

I feel your pain!

 

[charly1954]

If you grind egg shells you're pretty much using powdered calcium. Or am I missing something? Could be why the crickets are kicking it?

not using a fine grinder, one of those hand held Rival 2 blade blenders, it does'nt grind anything to a powder. The shells pieces are probably 2-3 times bigger than a grain of sand.

Also I been feeding them that mixture for about a month with no problem. It all at once started dying. I clean the big tub once a week so its a mystery to me. Hatched around 500 now got about 100 less so lost about 20% so far.

If I can't keep crickets alive, hate to think about my luck if I get a Chameleon. Poor man here and they are very pricey. Lots of online places the S&H cost more than the Chameleon. Need to find one within driving distance. I'm 60 miles north of Indianapolis,Ind.

 

[charly1954]

I hate it when I don't notice when a thread is old.......

don't see 4 months being old. Sorry I started it backup, but when anyone runs a search the later threads do show. Theres allot of info in old threads. I always feel its better to add to a old thread than start a new one, less threads to clog up the works.

 

[charly1954]

I hate it when I don't notice when a thread is old.......

I'm really sorry for your and your wife's loss.

Unless you had done some kind of a necropsy, there is no way of knowing why he died.

I don't agree with a lot of the posters suggesting it is because of a lack of UVB, light at night or too high temps.

Your chameleon died suddenly and rather dramatically. Something might have been going on before (as evidenced by your wife noticing he didn't drink) but maybe not.

I looked at the pictures you posted and although the pictures are not good quality, he looked a good weight and his legs looked straight. Based on those pictures he looked in pretty good condition. Except he died.

The hemipenes (those wormy things you described coming out of his vent) were probably extended because as he was dying, everything relaxes. That's not why he died.

While no UV light will cause a problem in the long term, it is possible to compensate, at least for awhile, with Vitamin D and calcium. Metabolic bone disease isn't going to kill him suddenly, either. Death from MBD is like death from osteoporosis--their bones just break and can't support the body or their is a severe calcium shortage in the blood and muscles don't work. MBD isn't sudden death either.

Incorrect lighting and temperatures (as long as the temperatures aren't so hot the animal dies of overheating directly) won't kill suddenly either. They kill by stressing the animal and the stress suppresses the immune system causing an illness that kills the animal. Again, if an animal is ill, they don't seem fine or reasonably fine and then just keel over dead.

It is possible that he had a blocked gut from the bark substrate I think you mentioned having, but again, that isn't the kind of thing where he is just going to suddenly fall over on his side and die. A blocked gut takes days and days to kill (unless there is a rupture) and there is a tremendous amount of pain.

There are so many things that could have killed your chameleon suddenly like that. A dear friend, a breeder, lost an adult suddenly from a hemorrhage in the lungs. Suddenly, out of the blue, this healthy female became critically ill and died in a few hours. He did the necropsy himself and found the lungs full of blood. Why did she bleed out in the lungs is the unanswered question, but it was not from illness (unless maybe a tumor that ruptured) and it wasn't from poor husbandry. It was sudden and he is still in shock just like you are.

Something else was going on. I think your wife should be comforted to know that she didn't kill him because of poor lighting or temperatures or other husbandry errors. Maybe he had a heart attack. Maybe he had an aneurysm. You just don't know, but I don't think it was because of poor husbandry. It sounds like some kind of a catastrophic event for your poor chameleon.

Please give your wife a hug for me. I know how really distressing to have a loved animal die so unexpectedly.

Wow, after reading all this great info I have to ask. Are Chameleons really that fragile and hard to keep alive? If so how can they last out in the wild. Has captivity and captive breeding made them more sickly like animals in the Zoo. I guess if I'm to start with this new hobby I need to get a more hardy Reptile. I really liked the Chameleons, don't want some real big, so maybe they're not for me.I ask again, any suggestions?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Wow, after reading all this great info I have to ask. Are Chameleons really that fragile and hard to keep alive? If so how can they last out in the wild. Has captivity and captive breeding made them more sickly like animals in the Zoo. I guess if I'm to start with this new hobby I need to get a more hardy Reptile. I really liked the Chameleons, don't want some real big, so maybe they're not for me.I ask again, any suggestions?

They are quite hardy IF you give them the environment and nutrition they need and each species has different needs. The problems often are incorrect environmental conditions such as wrong temps, humidity, a lack of cover, poor lighting. Those stress the animal. Add too much handling and the animal is in a state of chronic stress where their immune system is weak and an infection that they could normally fight off ends up making them sick and they often die.

 

[Carlton]

Wow, after reading all this great info I have to ask. Are Chameleons really that fragile and hard to keep alive? If so how can they last out in the wild. Has captivity and captive breeding made them more sickly like animals in the Zoo. I guess if I'm to start with this new hobby I need to get a more hardy Reptile. I really liked the Chameleons, don't want some real big, so maybe they're not for me.I ask again, any suggestions?

Like most very specialized creatures chams are not unusually fragile unless they are taken out of the habitat they evolved with. They are very fine tuned to their natural ecosystem but when plunked into an artificial situation they are literally ducks out of water. We can't really recreate their tropical home or provide them with the nutrition they would get in the wild. So, a lot of their care is learned trial and error or guessing. We've made a lot of progress on proper husbandry, but there is a lot we still don't know. If you are someone who likes the more hands-on detailed care a cham requires this can be a pleasant challenge, but if not it can be upsetting and worrisome.