Chameleon forums i need your help!!!!!!!

ecoreef

ecoreef

New Member
Ok, so appearently the people varanus.net(forum for monitors) are very unimformed about current reptile husbandry. I asked a question about if it was safe to use dog and cat food as an insect feed since monitors are used to more animal protien and possibly wouldn't suffer the kidney damage. The responce I got from the so-called monitor and reptile guru had answers like this...

-"gut loading is silly"

-"Gut loading is akin to UV in that it is a band aid tactic to try to compesate for husbandry deficiencies. Like uv, It is a myth perpetuated by the herp supply marketers in order to get folks to buy stuff"

everyone on that forums jsut keeps saying the most retarded things! This makes me appreciate Chameleon Forums so much!!! I any of you guys are on varanus.net or want to join to back me up I would REALLY appreciate it.

Any help from Chris Anderson, ferritinmyshoes, or anyone else that has studied reptile husbandry extensively would be very appreciated given their credentials.

HELP ME CHAMELEON FORUMS!
 
Wow.. wat a nice bunch of.jack wagons.. if I was ur father I wouldn't let u hang out with those kids there trouble.. haha. Anyways over there in giant lizard world where apparently just keeping them alive is the goal I would take there advice with a grain of salt from wat ive seen.. gentlemen said he raised and bred veileds.. yet didn't belive in uvb or gutloading.. I smell air from someones behind... Haha
 
Wow, seriously? I got about 5-6 posts in and quit reading. This "FR" fellow seems to give me the impression that you simply stick a herp in a cage and let it do what it wants? At least that is what he said in a "nutshell" a word that was mentioned 4 times I believe, yet the expression itself is supposed to summarize something....which he failed to do by writing a 700 word diatribe of repetitious swill that seemed to get across no real point whatsoever. Hey just get a herp, throw them in a cage and let he/she have at it. They will live a long life!! LOL! Whatever....
 
lojack13 said:
Wow, seriously? I got about 5-6 posts in and quit reading. This "FR" fellow seems to give me the impression that you simply stick a herp in a cage and let it do what it wants? At least that is what he said in a "nutshell" a word that was mentioned 4 times I believe, yet the expression itself is supposed to summarize something....which he failed to do by writing a 700 word diatribe of repetitious swill that seemed to get across no real point whatsoever. Hey just get a herp, throw them in a cage and let he/she have at it. They will live a long life!! LOL! Whatever....
Click to expand...

I think FR stands for f***ing re**rd.. sorry for every rule I just broke..
 
This isn't the first time I've heard this...boggles the mind doesn't it? Some monitors seem to not need much UVB, like pygmy chameleons. That's all fine and good if that's the case, but to say UVB is a marketing ploy for all other reptiles is idiotic. About to start a 4 hour drive so will post full response later. :)
 
The guy in question (FR) seems to miss his own point quite spectacularly :D We keep them confined so it's us restricting the options for them.......therefore we must do NOTHING to compensate for things like lack of sunshine, a complete rounded diet, etc.
I feel sorry for the huge number of lizards he's (apparently) raised that had to get their own nutrition from the thin gruel they were fed. My Ashleigh eats a great variety of gutloaded insects from silkworms and locusts to roaches and crickets. She loves a bit of egg and seems pretty happy if her crickets have been eating some chicken or minced beef. I don't feed much meat to her crickets though, she gets a good few mice too.
I never fed any dog or cat food to her or the insects because it's usually too high in fat and salty for a lizard I think (even a carnivorous one)
I give her plain Calcium every feeding, most feeders. About once a month she gets a bit with d3 as well. I also have her a 10.0 uv bulb :D
I would come and join varanus.net but someone just put me off it :rolleyes: - get them over here to read a bit of useful information presented in a readable way...........
 
I just can't believe the ignorance that exists on that forum... FR actually stands for Frank Retes. He's supposedly an "expert" when it comes to reptiles, supposedly........
 
I like how he is lumping all of chameleons into one group~ and telling you that he didn't use uvb. Make me wonder what kind of chams he's referring to....

This is clearly a "mill breeder"-- yes, he can get things to live and in mass quantity, but they wont be healthy once they leave his hands. some people... sheesh
 
Varanus is the genus of monitor species. Monitors are very amazing creatures. Apparently some of the people that specialize in them are not.

-Alex
 
Haha wow. Having read this I feel so stupid. How can someone claim to successfully raise and breed veiled chameleons with that kind of husbandry. I feel so bad for his reptiles. I wonder how long they survived under those conditions? He never states that. Its a shame that hard headed people won't listen to educated information.
 
I understand what he is saying and agree with parts but also know he is full of his own bullshit to..

Knowing complete details of a study is crucial when taking advice. Its like reading feeder insect analysis. What were they fed to come up with protein, fat etc for the final analysis. Understand?

Most other lizards arent as demanding as chameleons and dont need the specifics. Understand chameleons are the upper epsilon of whole rounded care. Not very many other lizards are as sensitive to care as these guys are. He mentions monitors, bearded dragons, geckos etc...All of these from my experiences were not sensitive to how prey was prepared. We do go overboard with chameleons and im sure they dont need the 5000 ingredients we choose to put in out feeders before feeding them off BUT i will choose to do it till the end of my keeping days.

Other lizards can process preformed vitd just as efficiently as they can through synthesis from a light source. I posted a while back a study done on veileds and vitd..They are more efficient at breaking it down form a light source versus a supplemented source. On the otherhand I know breeders that keep dragons with no uvb..AGAIN, its a whole other way of caring..

You wont win a gut loading fight at a monitor forums. You can feed your insects just about anything and the monitor will thrive :)
 
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There's really no point in wasting time formulating a coherent argument using logical reasoning and scientific evidence because these are the type of people who don't know how to think anyway. They see one thing for a short period of time and that means to them anyone ever can use it in any situation on any animal and they'll never die.

Saying 'gutloading is a waste' is like saying 'people eating healthy see no benefits from doing so'. Really? Really? Common sense is really all that's needed there when you think about it and see how nutritious a cricket is on its own. I could go into a long explanation, but they're not going to pay attention as they have lizards that can thrive with or without it. Monitors are like garbage disposals. They can eat anything. That's their ecological niche, and they're good at it. Kind of like goats. (No diss to monitors, I think they're amazing animals and want some myself.) To apply that to every other species of reptiles given their absurd variation and diversity in species is ridiculously narrow-minded. I've fought too many arguments with these types - trying to teach them something is like shouting at a brick wall to 'sit'. Ain't gonna happen, and it shortens my lifespan with the near embolism that occurs listening to people be so stupid.

And to say UVB is just a marketing ploy actually makes me laugh out loud. They don't actually see the animals suffering from the broken bones and terrible deformities that occur with MBD from lack of UVB. I have several prime examples of it myself in the rescue animals I've adopted, and have seen literally hundreds of examples of it without ever even practicing as a doctor for a single day yet. Not all animals need it, but the ones that do do. Silliest 'marketing ploy' ever since most people don't start with one anyway and have to get one later to fix the terrible disease they've caused.

Sorry ecoreef, I've seen enough stupid for this month to fill my quota already...I won't be diving into the other forum to start a discussion that I already know the ending to. :(
 
In addition to Tree boas, Chams, and a number of other neat herps over the years, I own a pair of Blue tree monitors. To give you an idea of how long...well these two were some of the original first batch to be imported I was told. I've had them since 2002. So 10 yrs now in our care......

At the time, there was nothing about them to read. I visited many sites and chatted with a number of people. It would be correct to say that when I visited that site years ago it nearly made me stop using the internet for information entirely. The same can be said of other websites. The Chameleon Forums is the only site I will actively participate on now. It has a completely different vibe and user base.


UV lighting for monitors is completely different than our Chams. They don't have anywhere the need for it like our Chams. However they do need it. I use a halogen UVB bulb for their basking area and two 4" repti sun 10.0 bulbs. Since their habitat is 7' tall, 8' long, and 24" wide, I needed serious UVB to cover a large chunk of the habitat. Personally, I can tell when the bulbs need to be replaced since the monitors blue spots start to fade. New bulbs = bright frigging blue spots.

As for gut loading? Well I simply feed fresh veggies from the fridge to the mice I use. Once every 14 days I cut a few slices to a size they can eat off a nice steak ( London broil ) and roll some rep cal on it. While nearly everybody who had these animals from that shipment lost them, mine are doing well. Last year the female dropped some eggs...but my bastard of a male ( Blue Meanie ) made a snack of them. I considered turning him into a mantle piece for my living room :mad: ........

Should I share my tips or experience with the turds over there? No. Screw 'em. They just inflate their egos amongst themselves, they don't do anything for the hobby imo.


Chameleon Forums has one of the best groups of users I've ever come across, well moderated, and a whole different vibe. All of which makes it worth using, promoting, protecting. :D
 
ataraxia said:
I understand what he is saying and agree with parts but also know he is full of his own bullshit to..

Knowing complete details of a study is crucial when taking advice. Its like reading feeder insect analysis. What were they fed to come up with protein, fat etc for the final analysis. Understand?

Most other lizards arent as demanding as chameleons and dont need the specifics. Understand chameleons are the upper epsilon of whole rounded care. Not very many other lizards are as sensitive to care as these guys are. He mentions monitors, bearded dragons, geckos etc...All of these from my experiences were not sensitive to how prey was prepared. We do go overboard with chameleons and im sure they dont need the 5000 ingredients we choose to put in out feeders before feeding them off BUT i will choose to do it till the end of my keeping days.

Other lizards can process preformed vitd just as efficiently as they can through synthesis from a light source. I posted a while back a study done on veileds and vitd..They are more efficient at breaking it down form a light source versus a supplemented source. On the otherhand I know breeders that keep dragons with no uvb..AGAIN, its a whole other way of caring..

You wont win a gut loading fight at a monitor forums. You can feed your insects just about anything and the monitor will thrive :)
Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to win a gutloading fight. I agree you can't take everything a study says as true, but telling people that UVB lighting and gut loading (for chameleons and bearded dragons) is just a ploy made up by the reptile marketing industry is just SO wrong. It's oldschool advice like this that leads new people into the hobby to do things like this...
mbdveiled.jpg

devo2.jpg

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images


And those poor creatures aren't the worst cases.

-Alex
 
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