Chameleon decision- opinions wanted

[woodsball]

Hey guys, I'm having a difficult time deciding between two chameleon choices.

Either purchasing a baby ambanja panther from chameleons 101 in california and having it shipped to canada (mr ambanja is the sire)...

or purchasing a baby hybrid panther from trinity chameleons in canada which is about a 1 hour drive from me. (diablo the ambilobe is the father with a tamatave mother)

I am just kind of skeptical about buying a hybrid panther and the possible outcome. however, on the other hand I am also skeptical about shipping a chameleon from california to canada and stressing out the lil guy to the max.

what are your opinions??

 

[Olimpia]

Shipping is really not as horrible as it sounds. I've gotten dozens of animals shipped in the mail from California to Florida and the animals always arive in perfect condition. With overnight shipping, half the time they're asleep, and they're in their new home before you know it.

And then getting a hybrid baby can be really exciting, in my opinion. If you have a BB ambilobe, for example, the odds are high that they'll look very similar to most other BB ambilobes. But if you have a hybrid, you're probably going to end up with something very different from what other people have. If it's any consolation, all the crosses I've seen are just as pretty as pure locale chams. And unless you plan on breeding, it doesn't really matter if he's pure or not.

It's up to you, but I've tried to give my opinion on both options. Don't settle for a cross because it's close, if that's not really what you want. Don't be afraid of shipping

 

[Trace]

Without proper CITES documentation you won't be able ship that Panther from the US to Canada. There are plenty breeders here in Canada with pure locales of pardalis if that's what you are looking for.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Wont your wait be several weeks if you have one shipped over the border? I think Drews' got several locales available. If i wanted a pure locale male I would wait. Thats just me.

 

[Cainschams]

Wont your wait be several weeks if you have one shipped over the border? I think Drews' got several locales available. If i wanted a pure locale male I would wait. Thats just me.

Probably more than several weeks. Both parties will need an import/export license which can take no time at all or lots of time for authorities to issue them. Then the exporter has to prove their chameleons are CB which is a long process. They will need a lot of paperwork to prove where their bloodlines come from.

Besides the time there is way too much money involved in importing and exporting to make 1 chameleon worth it. Hell, even 10 panthers would not be worth it IMO. You will easily have 1000$ wrapped up in permits, international shipping and inspection fees. As was mentioned, there are quite a few places to choose from if you want a "pure" locale. Two of them are site sponsors!!! Chameleon Nation and Chroma Chameleons.

 

[woodsball]

I do love alot of the chameleons locally... but here in canada they are twice the price that I see from chameleons with breeders in america. $150 from chameleons 101 seems much more reasonable that 300-400 from a local breeder here in canada....

the only thing that i have in my option right now is the hybrid which is 200. that's already alot of money for an animal that isn't pure bred... do I seem ridiculous saying this??? In comparison to dogs for example, mutt's are half the price of a pure bred. It's just kind of unsettling with me to purchase a hybrid (ambilobe/tamatave) without any sort of knowledge as to what it can turn out to look like. yes call me picky... but for 200 I want to be satisfied with the outcome

 

[VeiledOwner87]

In my opinion, if this is your first chameleon, i deffinately wouldn't get something like a panther here in canada. i do admit, panthers are far out rediculous prices here in canada, i live in ontario as well, and the most inexpensive pardalis i've ever seen was 199$ flat out the door for a pink ambiliobe. chroma chams and trinity chams, (2 of our site sponsors) have gorgeous breeders, but they are pretty high in price for the locales, trinity has a nosy mitsio for 400$, but your typical ambanjas and ambilobes are nearly that price elsewhere as well. and there is a big difference in hands on experience compared to extensive research only. i say this to you because i know pardalis is expensive here in canada, and getting them cheap from a breeder on the forums would come out possibly more with shipping, and a pain in the a** crossing the borders.

in my opinion, you can have the same amount of fun, gain close to the same amount of experience, with a cheaper species like veileds, senegals and flapnecks. you dont have to impress your friends with the paint pallet just yet my friend. i just wouldnt want to see you go through potential beginner troubles with an awfully expensive animal. not saying you would, and not saying i would rather see a cheap chameleon go throug it, no not at all. just money is money, and if you dont have a ton of it to get started, than you're in trouble. hope this helps

 

[Cainschams]

In my opinion, if this is your first chameleon, i deffinately wouldn't get something like a panther here in canada. i do admit, panthers are far out rediculous prices here in canada, i live in ontario as well, and the most inexpensive pardalis i've ever seen was 199$ flat out the door for a pink ambiliobe. chroma chams and trinity chams, (2 of our site sponsors) have gorgeous breeders, but they are pretty high in price for the locales, trinity has a nosy mitsio for 400$, but your typical ambanjas and ambilobes are nearly that price elsewhere as well. and there is a big difference in hands on experience compared to extensive research only. i say this to you because i know pardalis is expensive here in canada, and getting them cheap from a breeder on the forums would come out possibly more with shipping, and a pain in the a** crossing the borders.

in my opinion, you can have the same amount of fun, gain close to the same amount of experience, with a cheaper species like veileds, senegals and flapnecks. you dont have to impress your friends with the paint pallet just yet my friend. i just wouldnt want to see you go through potential beginner troubles with an awfully expensive animal. not saying you would, and not saying i would rather see a cheap chameleon go throug it, no not at all. just money is money, and if you dont have a ton of it to get started, than you're in trouble. hope this helps

I really dont see why you would suggest a flap neck or senegal instead of a panther if you are talking about experience Those two will most likely be wild caughts and it takes a lot more experience to acclimate a WC properly. Just because a panther is more does not mean one cant be successful. Do the necessary research, choose a reputable breeder, receive a healthy CB specimen, and be well on your way to successfully taking care of a panther.

If they just want one chameleon as a pet why settle for a veiled if they want a panther? Not everyone thinks veileds are that cool looking and I would choose a panther over a veiled any day regardless of price.

If I were the OP I would save up some more money and get what I wanted. JMO.

 

[Trace]

So an emaciated, half-dead wild caught chameleon like a Flapneck or Senegal would be a better option for a beginner? It will cost more in medical bills to maybe save it than just buying a decent CB panther.

 

[robmd1]

its that old sayen "ya get what ya pay for" drew has some awesome chams id look at what hes got an if he doesnt have what you want id wait for it, gettin a cham from chameleons 101 an goin threw the hassle an cost of gettin it there you could buy a nice cham from drew@ chameleon nation.. i actually just got a cham from them chameleons northwest imported a group of falys to the states from raiden an i couldnt be happier yeah had to pay alittle more but was well worth it....

 

[VeiledOwner87]

hey guys, its just my opinion. just lately ive seen so many threads on here about
1) no more time
2) didnt realy realise the care
3) looking for a good home
4) my new CB is having problems

and most all start or include "i did my research"

yeah panthamayne, lol you're right, you get what you pay for, but for beginners, i think its safe to say now is the time to see what you're getting into first.

and in canada, i'm surprised to see how well a lot of WC's are. im having a little tounge issue with my fischers as some of you may no, but i believe that was a cause of malnuritment between the supplier and the pet store. he is recovering awsome little by little. oh and no parasites. my girlfriends WC fischer's is doing hella great, a friendly, loves-to-be-around people chameleon, clean and extreamly healthy. not all WC are bad, and in my opinion, are immuned a lot better than CB. yes some WC come in from the import filthy and half dead, but it also is contributed to the care of the suppliers and pet stores.

this is my opinion

 

[Psi]

I do love alot of the chameleons locally... but here in canada they are twice the price that I see from chameleons with breeders in america. $150 from chameleons 101 seems much more reasonable that 300-400 from a local breeder here in canada....

the only thing that i have in my option right now is the hybrid which is 200. that's already alot of money for an animal that isn't pure bred... do I seem ridiculous saying this??? In comparison to dogs for example, mutt's are half the price of a pure bred. It's just kind of unsettling with me to purchase a hybrid (ambilobe/tamatave) without any sort of knowledge as to what it can turn out to look like. yes call me picky... but for 200 I want to be satisfied with the outcome

150$ from Chams 101 + 200$ for permit + 150$(I think) for inspection before you receive the animal. That's all American too.

500$US > 300$ Canadian
I didn't even add in shipping ... bah.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

VeilOwner 87, you mentioned your WC Fischers arrived parasite free? Did you have a fecal confirm that ? I took delivery of several Fischer WC a few months ago and they looked amazingly healthy. I did a shotgun metronidazole /panacur treatment anyway and guess what? Eight days later and roundworm spaghetti explosion.

For those of you that won't/ can't administer your own meds, be advised you will run a $150.00 vet bill to get that taken care of, with a fecal to confirm. So how cheap are those WCs.

Cites paperwork incurs costs and delays. Last I checked , there isn't a U.S. breeder that will ship only 1 or 2 chams to Canada. I certainly don't ship singles to the U.S.

Over the years , many breeders appear with rock bottom prices. Anyone here remember Precision? They usually last a few months , then disappear. Those fabulous prices are not sustainable and it is proven over and over again with each attempt and failure.

Breeding CB Panthers in Canada is not cheap. The price reflects the costs, the mortality of newly hatched clutches, supply and demand.

I understand the concerns over the price of Panthers. If you can't barely afford the cham , what will you do if a vet bill arises? For the budget minded , consider a veiled.

 

[woodsball]

I'm not sure as to what direction your post is going towards... I have been reading for the past couple weeks at about an hour or two a day... or however long while at work doing nothing. I am not concerned about the maintenance of owning the chameleon. I simply am unsure of the outcome of a hybrid chameleon (in terms of colour) compared to that of a normal locale. Yes, it is never going to be 100% known, but atleast with pure breads you can grasp a pretty good idea.

I'm probably not the only person who has thought of this, and I wanted to ask chameleon owners with more experience than myself (as I was unable to find alot of pictures or information on hybrids on the forum) for their input.

It seems like alot of people have steered me away from the border hassle.. Which I kind of thought would happen. The hybrid is from Drew at chameleon nation. I am just still skeptical and would love for the outcome to be somewhat of a red bar ambilobe (hoping the red and white from the tamatave would show a little... however Diablo is amazing!!)

heres a picture of diablo:

 

[VeiledOwner87]

yes croma, a fecal has determined that. i did a fecal test two days after having him, i got him on a saturday and took the sample to my vet first thing on the following monday.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

veiledowner... good to see you spent the money to be sure. Money well spent .....

 

[woodsball]

veiled owner, I dont want to come off as being offensive... but a wild caught chameleon was never one of my options... nor am I considering it.

I'm sure there are other threads where you can debate the healthiness of your WC chameleon adventures.. But I would prefer if I would be able to attain information concerning my debate

 

[VeiledOwner87]

thanks croma, thats the first step i would take in obtaining any new chameleon. WC or CB/CH

woodsball, no offence taken, and my post wasn't meant to be a debate about how healthy WCs are. im sure that you can 100% trust the hybrid of the breeders coming from croma and nation, but obviously every colour, every pattern, etc, will be different with every chameleon. even solid pure breads as you put it. yes, same locale, same breed, but just like a zebra, no chameleon is the same.

i hope im on track with you lol.

anywho,

 

[SpinyFranky]

The simple lack of availability of chameleons in Canada (vs. the surplus currently in the U.S) - its simple supply and demand tactics that are explaining why it costs you more to purchase one in Canada rather than in the U.S.

You Could most easily purchase a CB/Pure Locale from the U.S, of which we have many amazing breeders that would love to sell you one. However the problem arises in Cites and shipping the animal to a foreign country. If you really want to do it, expect Permits, inspections, shipping, and the animal itself to run you somewhat more than $1000 dollars. Depending on the government agency your working with to get the animal imported and how busy they are, as stated permits could take a simple week, or months.

Compared to paying a little more for the original cost of the animal + a 1 hour drive to pick it up, I say purchasing one in Canada is much more cost effective.

Ignore the fact that U.S prices are cheaper, since your a resident of Canada - no offense but our prices don't apply to you because your not in the country . I would suggest shopping with the Canadian breeders, compare their prices (not ours ;P) and find the best deal available to you locally, because in all reality that is going to be the best deal you will find.

Best of luck, and for the Hybrid vs. Pure debate - Pure will always be my preference simply because you have a better understanding of what the animal will possibly look like, as well as that pride that comes from owning a true piece of beauty . Not that all chameleons are not beautiful... but I have a special pride knowing the sires of my chameleons.

Let us know what you decide.. and PICTURES PICTURES AND MORE PICTURES

S.F

 

[sbernhoft]

In response to the original post, I have one of Mr. Ambanja's offspring and at 4 months he is already gorgeous. I live in ca though, so shipping us uncomplicated.