Chameleon Conservation

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Just to recognize a success for chameleon conservation is that the CITES Ban in 1995 has been successful in significantly reducing the numbers of exported numbers of chameleons that are both legal and non CITES legal species. This is an aspect of chameleon conservation that should be recognized. Still without protected preserves for each species all these species will always be threatened with extinction.

 

[Pure]

Even with the CITIES ban on certain Chams as well as most other protected species smuggling and poaching is a big problem. The best way to eliminate this problem is for us to not buy threatened animals and make sure the ones that we do purchase have the proper CITIES papers. Even still with tricks of going through other countries and flat out dishonest practices it's still a problem.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I actually think the Chameleon keeping hobby (for species that requires CITES permits) should start the practice of micro chip implacemt documentation for these CITES paper work chameleons. This creates a documented paper trail and detailed background for identifing the micro chipped chameleons (what generation captive bred they are and where the parents are origannaly from Asia or Europe) and greatly reduces forged or falsefied import papers with documented micro chip numbers(only buy properly microchipped CITES approved animals and boycot the nonmicro chipped animals (smuggled animals)). There are other species that this CITES micro chip approach has worked for (farm bred Asian Arowanas). Then have a tax on micro chipped CITES animals and have the money go back to Madagascar for forest/ chameleon conservation.

 

[Pure]

The only problem with this is justifying the expense. Sure it would work, but some of those Aros go for over 10Gs, really anything less than a parsonii wouldn't be economically sound. There may be other Chams on the CITIES list that sell for as much I just don't know about them.

 

[elianto]

i think this could be quite problematic when considering smaller calumma speciese,pygmies or bradypodion,technically speaking.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Correct, however I think it should be considered with the larger Madagascar chameleons. This would be a great way to prevent a lot of smuggling. Plus CITES applies (microchips) this to Green Asian Arowanas and in Canada and they retail for 500 (about 550 US dollars) and up. At this price other species of chameleons could be micro chipped for starting cost effective microchip policy/ program (I'm not saying all madagascar chameleons are fit for captive breeding programs)and cuting back on smuggling. Plus the Asian Arowanas that are bred out of fish farms are not implanted with their micro chips until they are about 3 to 4 inches long (the microchips are small). This program could apply to quite a few farm bred chameleon species.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I think something similar could be done for chameleons as what is being done for Asian Arowanas.

 

[Pure]

I hate to burst your bubble on the Aros. But wile Micro chipping has significantly cut down on poached/smuggled animals it has far from stopped it. If you keep your eyes on aquabid, you will see illegals getting yanked all the time. Mark doesn't want problems from CITIES or fish and game so he does a good job of deleting them, so they don't stay up long and can't be searched.

You would think these people would be smarter than to post illegal animals on a public website. But I guess that just shows the mentality of the people we are dealing with and it's not like they are in the United States. They are in some third world crap hole with computer access. Making bringing them to justice next to impossible.

Just food for thought.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Do the chameleons (C. Parsoni) seen on Kingsnake have legitimate CITES paper work?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm aware that micro chips would not eliminate smuggling. However it would significantly reduce smuggling.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Thanks for sharing the good news!

I still think stable Captive Breeding populations, and awareness in the hobby, are the best combatants for this problem.

Keep improving on this hobby, the more we learn.. the more we can help the at risk species.

~Joe

 

[Chris Anderson]

The species that were banned are no longer legally exported in the numbers they once were (they aren't exported legally at all) but there are quite a few of those species which are still illegally exported. Other Malagasy species are still exported as well although quotas have put a limit on the annual numbers. In other countries, this is not the case, however, and animals are still heavily exploited. CITES has good intentions but it is far from perfect and the measures that have been made to try to protect chameleons are far from eliminating illegal export. Further, they do little to nothing to protect their habitat which in some cases is a more vital concern.

I really do not see what the point is for a microchip implant focused regulation for chameleons. The species of legal concern are sold too young or are otherwise too small to tolerate a typical microchip implant anyway. The smallest available chips might work for some individuals but they are going to be prohibitive cost wise and if not all individuals will be large enough when sold/imported, you lose any effectiveness of the system. If they come into the country with CITES document, what is the point? Sure you can track them later but to implement something like that is going to be extremely expensive and difficult when these animals are sold before they are large enough to be implanted.

Do the chameleons (C. Parsoni) seen on Kingsnake have legitimate CITES paper work?

Yes, generally the C. parsonii that are imported all have accompanying CITES paperwork.

Chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

Originally Posted by Motherload Chameleon
Do the chameleons (C. Parsoni) seen on Kingsnake have legitimate CITES paper work?

In many cases it may have been inappropriately obtained, if not in complete contradiction to CITES rules governing the standards for documentation at the point of original documentation. CITES rules and recommendations are only as good as the integrity of the country applying them. The U.S., Canada, and the European Union are pretty tight on it all. Countries of origin such as Indonesia are a farce when it comes to credibility. Sure makes for easy money though, and its not just parsonii coming through that pipeline, but pardalis as well. Can't remember the last time I saw a chameleon, pardalis or otherwise, advertised as a product of Indonesia, but you can unknowingly buy them on KS right now ! Regardless of the circumstance that existed once an animal gets documentation, once an animal has the paperwork, its moves forward "legitimate". So long as there is a market, there will be this kind of mischief.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

hidden in plain view

A few years back i worked for trop fish store. The owner was Thai, he had connections.

We could get all the typical illegals, piranhas, endangered fish and corals, caiman, legit fighting fish, the kind you bet on, sharks blah blah blah.

but i remember one time coming in and seeing out POS jebo all in one fresh 10gal with a new layout, who knows how long it had been like that. It hadnt been changed in the years i had been there, It was the kind of whatever tank thrown together to sucker little kids and first timers.

I went about my business and got a call from the owner ( it was his day off )
someone was coming to pick up the arow in the 10gal jebo. he said he was bring half cash half check.

He said this ones going to jump, dont let it!!!!!!!!

well the buyer shows up gidding as can be, my manager and i go for the first and so as he opens the lid, Zoom! the damn thing jumped out and lands on the floor...........

its flopping around like crazy and the guys draw dropped big time. we snatched it up and got it ready to go, his face was white but he handed over the cash anyways. he told us his luck is going to take a turn for the better now.

14k on a juvy red. it had been out front for all to see all along, i asked him why he didnt hide it like the rest of the sketchy stuff and he said out in plain view was the safest place.

 

[grittsm8]

From a conservation standpoint CITES is a very poor "list". It is a negative list and places bans on species that can't be traded, thereby announcing to poachers and smugglers "that these species are endangered and illegal to trade...here's the big money".

CITES buy in is also extremely expensive for countries, and these small third world countries have other issues to worry about rather than conservation. While CITES policies are held up on the US/European end of the deal, with out the native countries doing their part to secure these species, and limit or ban trade, these species will always be exploited.

CITES is also species specific and does not take into account ecological interactions. For instance, lets say that in a particular jungle habitat a chameleon's (that is on the CITES) staple food source is a fly that only lays its eggs in rodent poop (which is not on CITES). A nearby village has an outbreak of a disease that is linked to these rodents so they exterminate them. Pretty soon the fly population dwindles, and then so does the chameleon population. Or even human interactions with nature...Tropical places are plagued with Malaria, and many still use DDT to kill the mosquitos that transmit malaria, if mosquito's are a major food source for a CITES listed cham then not only will the population dwindle because of low food sources, but also poisoning from the DDT.

I don't now a lot about chams yet as I have just bought my first one, but as a Wildlife Conservation major I feel CITES is a horrible way to classify the trade of endangered species.

--Mitch

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm not saying chameleon conservation is done with a micro chip policy. The job of chameleon conservation if far from done. I'm suggesting that for the larger species that are being exported with CITES paper work out of Europe and Asian programs a micro chip policy would add valuble autheniticity to go with CITES paper work. I corellated malagasy chameleon situation to Asian Arowana situation because it is a similar situation that happened to Asian Arowanas are now happening to Malagasy chameleons. The Asian arowana situation has improved much since the 1970's and is something the chameleon community shoud learn from and consisder. Asian Arowana farms were illegally started from wild caught individuals during the 80's and by the 1990's were well established captivity to the point CITES reopened trade in 1995 (not endangered in captivity). They used micro chips to create a documented paper tail for farm raised fish and to discourage buying wild caught animals. This has been done and has been effective (although not 100%) and gives credibility to farms that utilize this approach. This system is now to the point where consideration has been made to add a tax to these CITES paper work/ micro chipped individual that would go back towards conservation of wildlands. Giving increased crediblity to farms in Europe or Asia and due sucessful CITES micro chip/paperwork programs and sending money back to Madagascar for conservation is something that would be good for the chameleon conservation.

I have got a guy that goes to the German Hamm show and every couple years imports and chameleons from this show. He is considering bringing in some C. parsoni and C. globifer in a couple months that have got CITES paper work. Instead of rolling the dice (false paper work), if these animals had micro chips plus paper work (confirmed and recognized captive bred) would add a lot of welcome crediblility. Even with a greenhouse I'm going to pass on this oppertunity due to credibility alone (lack of faith of both asian and europe opperations). If they had both mircochips and paper work (plus sending money back to Madagascar) I probably would have picked up a pair.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

For Asian Arowana's to be CITES approved for export they have got to be documented 2nd generation captive bred.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

For people that are breeding Calumna species such as those indicated out of Europe and Asia keep captive breeding them (as many generations as possible). That is a major accomplishment and the one thing that was unbielevably frustrating here in the States before and after the ban especially 1994-1997. Here in central California there were many viable clutches in the hands of experienced keepers (12 Parsons and 5 Brevicornus that I'm acquainted with) from mostly freshly imported females and out of over 200 eggs from mostly (there were a couple entirely captive produced clutches) healthy wild caught females only one baby male parsons was produced. That is one thing that made Ken Kalish's accomplishments entirely amazing. If they are actually breeding these species in Europe and Asia that is a major accoplishment and should be made legitimate and those breeding stock animals should not be forgotten. If these babies are young imports from Madagascar importation should be stopped. Just remember that working with these animals is a privilage of accomplished conservation efforts and we should be giving back to help preserve their homes in the wild.