Cham safe plants

[Flick boy]

So hi all just seen a post earlier on another group ( you now where lol ) the book. About reported cases of chams passing due to schefflera ingestion ( veileds. Which the plant has been taken off their safe list. For plant eating species but imo it would also be safe to say that panther (thats what I have) if feeders are free ranged and eating said plants then chams eating them be a risk ( obviously it would have too be questioned what the plants are been grown in or / and / if what has been used in the soil ?

 

[PoseidonTheChameleon]

Wow. I think I'm going to go find a new plant now.

 

[SeeJay]

Are we talking about 1-2 isolated incidents, or is there actually something to this?? Shefflera was always great for our nosy be, but when I built the bioactive enclosure, the pothos thrived and just kinda took over, choking out most of the other plants. So that’s what he lives in now.

 

[Beman]

What exactly are they trying to say about this? Without knowing if husbandry was up to par trying to say the cham died because of a widely used plant is pretty ehhhhh I dunno if I would believe it.

 

[The Wild One]

What exactly are they trying to say about this? Without knowing if husbandry was up to par trying to say the cham died because of a widely used plant is pretty ehhhhh I dunno if I would believe it.

I second this- there could be sooooo many other reasons the Cham passed and the plant just happened to be ingested right before the passing

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

So hi all just seen a post earlier on another group ( you now where lol ) the book. About reported cases of chams passing due to schefflera ingestion ( veileds. Which the plant has been taken off their safe list. For plant eating species but imo it would also be safe to say that panther (thats what I have) if feeders are free ranged and eating said plants then chams eating them be a risk ( obviously it would have too be questioned what the plants are been grown in or / and / if what has been used in the soil ?

1. Which Schefflera? There are ~600 species.
2. Reported where, and by whom?
3. Were causes of death determined by necropsy, or are these cases of a chameleon coincidentally dying some unspecified time after eating something?

So far, this is just unsupported, unverified, uncited hearsay. Urban myth? Troll?

 

[Flick boy]

Yes necropsy done high insoluble oxalate in blood , schefflera in stomach low white blood cell count ,stomach and digestive tract damaged due to oxalate. I don't know which type of schefflera. Reported by an admin in the uk .

 

[jamest0o0]

Hmm interesting! Would make us wonder about all the other plants that we use that have this defense mechanism as well. Regarding feeders, I wouldn't be concerned about that at all. The amount by feeders that would make it into your cham would be very insignificant IMO. Insects in the wild eat all kinds of toxic things. The problem is when the body is overloaded and doesn't have time to process it all.... like if a veiled would chow down on a lot of leaves. The difference would be massive. It's like humans eating vegetables, most have some form of anti nutrient, in regular amounts it's fine... if we ate loads of them everyday, it could be a problem.

 

[Beman]

Yes necropsy done high insoluble oxalate in blood , schefflera in stomach low white blood cell count ,stomach and digestive tract damaged due to oxalate. I don't know which type of schefflera. Reported by an admin in the uk .

I am just wondering what the entire situation was.... Truth is we do not know really what these plants can do over time for Veileds that continue to really eat their plants. Could very well cause organ issues. You should not have to worry with a Panther though.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Yes necropsy done high insoluble oxalate in blood , schefflera in stomach low white blood cell count ,stomach and digestive tract damaged due to oxalate. I don't know which type of schefflera. Reported by an admin in the uk .

Species is important, especially if we're talking about Schefflera arbicola; OTOH, if this is about some exotic/obscure species (with much higher oxalate content?) not commonly used in enclosures, it could be much ado about not so much.

There is also still the question of what other plants were in that enclosure (or that the chameleon could have been exposed to—on an outing?) that the chameleon could have ingested that could have raised blood levels of oxalate.

Medical (particularly oxalate-related) history of the chameleon?

We must also consider the source. Is there any way the origin can be pried out of the admin?

If true, this would appear to be a significant development worth sharing with the chameleon world, but before sounding any claxons...

 

[Beman]

Ok so I was thinking about this in the shower lol. Like to really know what is safe you would have to have such a big group of chams to run your observations from and then later on passing a necropsy. They should all be the same gender male preferred to rule out female issues with eggs, they should all be from the same clutch so your dealing with the same genetics, same cage set ups along with temps, feeding and amounts, supplements. Everything should be the exact same for each one with the exception of the plants in the cage. Their entire life they should only have that one plant. With this being the only difference later on you would be able to know more detailed info upon necropsy as far as plants and their oxilates causing damage...

It would be a very interesting study. I really think this would be the only way to have a clearer idea. But you could take it further too. Two separate clutches with totally different DNA. I mean for this person that had the cham that died. Was it the plant or could there have been an issue of compromised organs from a genetic issue. After all we hear it all the time about Veileds being so inbred within the hobby.

I dunno I think I am rambling now lol

 

[jamest0o0]

Ok so I was thinking about this in the shower lol. Like to really know what is safe you would have to have such a big group of chams to run your observations from and then later on passing a necropsy. They should all be the same gender male preferred to rule out female issues with eggs, they should all be from the same clutch so your dealing with the same genetics, same cage set ups along with temps, feeding and amounts, supplements. Everything should be the exact same for each one with the exception of the plants in the cage. Their entire life they should only have that one plant. With this being the only difference later on you would be able to know more detailed info upon necropsy as far as plants and their oxilates causing damage...

It would be a very interesting study. I really think this would be the only way to have a clearer idea. But you could take it further too. Two separate clutches with totally different DNA. I mean for this person that had the cham that died. Was it the plant or could there have been an issue of compromised organs from a genetic issue. After all we hear it all the time about Veileds being so inbred within the hobby.

I dunno I think I am rambling now lol

Yes, like you say, maybe the chameleons had a problem with the liver/kidneys/w.e and the oxalates couldn't be processed from the blood. I may be off with that as I'm not a doctor/biologist, but seems like it could be a possibility

 

[Beman]

Yes, like you say, maybe the chameleons had a problem with the liver/kidneys/w.e and the oxalates couldn't be processed from the blood. I may be off with that as I'm not a doctor/biologist, but seems like it could be a possibility

Yeah me neither but in my head it totally sounds right

 

[Flick boy]

Yeah sure there are variables on genetic trates that their could be something passed on in breeding that the genes are not processing things how they should. I've seen similar things with dogs when males have looked the part and been used numerous times but had underlying issues and been passed down to offspring ( liver and kidney problems)