Cham noob pondering first enclosure

[herpmagnet]

Hello, I'm brand new to this site, but a veteran in interest in reptiles. I am heavily considering delving into chameleons! I've wanted to for quite some time.

I'm still in college, and work experience has left me feeling ready to take on the challenges. I have volunteered >100 hours at a small zoo nearby (Peoria Zoo, IL) Most of my work there has been with the reptile keeper. We do not have any chams, but we have several tropical species that do require misting, etc.

I also have ~40 hours of experience at Shedd Aquarium. While at the aquarium I am mostly caring for jellies and seahorses, I only make the point to show that I have more animal husbandry experience than most my age. My biggest reptile care in my own home is that of several Mali Uromastyx. Quite the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of water needs, but they still have somewhat delicate heating/lighting needs all in the same.


I apologize for the lengthy introduction, I just feel it necessary to communicate my general experience. Now on to the good stuff. I am currently in debate between species. Mainly between getting one panther, or several individuals of any dwarf species. As I have begun to understand through these forums, I would be able to keep several dwarfs (I promise I will be much more versed with the idea before any purchases ) in one enclosure, which would be my ideal choice.

Regardless of species I choose, I am considering building my own enclosure. The snake keeper I work with at the zoo actually has a side business building reptile enclosures, and I am hoping to rack his brain for suggestions as well. Being a (an aspiring, anyway) scientist, I know the value of experience, so I highly value the your opinions/input!

Would you recommend a custom enclosure for a "beginner"? (chameleon wise; certainly not reptile-wise.) I also have some pretty lenghty carpentry/general assembly knowledge. (i.e. last summer's 24ft trebuchet project)

Also, I have read that enclosures can be too big for a juvenile. If I take the route of a panther (or several dwarfs for that matter), can an enclosure be too big? I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 5'X5'X8' Also, could I expect any chance at two panthers in an enclosure of this magnitude?

Again, these are all preliminary questions. As I have already been instructed (and for good reason!) throughout this forum: I am getting everything prepared before I have any chameleons on the way.

Thanks for reading! Hope I didn't take up too much space

 

[camimom]

Welcome!

we always say bigger is better for cham enclosures...

my ONLY warning, they are addicting!!!!!
lol. i have four, one on hold, and one im probably abuot ot get to breed.

you probably wont be able to do two panthers in that cage, just beacause males are mostly territorial, and amale female will stres the female out and they wil constantly breed, which will shorten her life span.


other than that, build to you rhearts content!

 

[chameleonfan101]

Welcome!

 

[herpmagnet]

Any thoughts on preferred materials? I know I will be needing some sort of mesh. Any input on the optimal mesh for UVb?

What about the frame? I could see pros/cons to wood and metal. If wood, treat it or absolutely don't, etc?

Again, thank you for your input. If there is a good DIY discussion that I haven't read yet, feel free to direct me there.

 

[herpmagnet]

ooh also, what about 0.2 panthers in the same cage?

 

[herpmagnet]

Welcome!

Thank you. I am pretty overwhelmed by the positive community you guys have here!

 

[camimom]

you might could make .2 panthers work.
for wood, nothing pressure treated.
whatever you use though, make sure you waterrpoof it.
and with a cage that big, youll need an auto mister. i would sugges tthe mist king deluxe system.

and of course, egg laying bins.

i plan on using window screen mesh for my cham cages im building this weekend.

 

[herpmagnet]

whatever you use though, make sure you waterrpoof it.

i.e. seal with varnish (tarnish?... all nighter last night)

obviously I will clean if after, just being cautious about known residual toxins, etc. from curing wood used in enclosure.

Thanks! If you remember to post any pictures that would be super!

 

[ChappyMcChap]

you might could make .2 panthers work.
for wood, nothing pressure treated.
whatever you use though, make sure you waterrpoof it.
and with a cage that big, youll need an auto mister. i would sugges tthe mist king deluxe system.

and of course, egg laying bins.

i plan on using window screen mesh for my cham cages im building this weekend.

Stay away from fiberglass, I had nothing but problems building it. Aluminum if coated is my fav, 1/4" galvanized works as well. Fiberglass, which is used for window screen though I'm not sure you're speaking direct about, tears easily and lighting we use deteriorates it quickly.

 

[ChappyMcChap]

i.e. seal with varnish (tarnish?... all nighter last night)

obviously I will clean if after, just being cautious about known residual toxins, etc. from curing wood used in enclosure.

Thanks! If you remember to post any pictures that would be super!

There is a thread about low VOC stains and varnishes. Consider melamine though, or galvanized tubing. Even with sealant, they can still rot out with the amount of moisture we use.

 

[DekuScrub]

i personally have a thing against wood. PT is obviously a big no no. as i know for sure cedar is toxic for them, any sort of pines or tannins put me on edge. id also stay away from particle board and plywood for fear of what adhesives may be used.

even still people commonly use wood as construction materials with success.

so thats just my opinion.

i build my own out of black aluminum screen (gives better visibility) splined into basic window framing. virtually exactly what youd get from LLLreptile and other her suppliers.

has a much cleaner look IMO as well.

definitely go with the black aluminum though, youd be surprised how much of a difference there is in the black and charcoal aesthetically.

and does anyone have a link to that thread about low voc varnishes?

waterproofing just sounds like a bad idea to me though.... my dad waterproofed our deck last summer and im still seeing rainbows of whatever chemical that is.

 

[DekuScrub]

oh and as far as housing 2 together goes it can be done.

tht sounds sufficient for 2 females.

though territorial disputes may erupt if you eventually mate them and either are gravid

ive been of the predisposition males should never ever be housed together based on personal experience and what is commonly recommended. for any reason from stress to literal wounds.

HOWEVER

Olympia laid the smack down on that rule as being written in stone for me today.

she posted this in the thread i started titled "cagemates? taboo or...."

It was something like 10' x 8' x 7-10'? I haven't lived there since May, but it was something like that. I always had the door open too, so they had the option of leaving if they wanted to and go to any of the other FR posts I had set up around the apartment. But none of them really left, only one did to climb the TV, watch Animal Cops with me, and go back to the room every single day.

I have photos of them sleeping together and what the room looked like if anyone is curious, I just don't want to hijack the thread.

I continued to free range in the new apartment but I started re-homing the chams so I'd have fewer, and now that I have a male and female they are both in cages, so they don't get at each other.

The room: http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5664/chamjungleroom4.jpg
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9292/chamjungleroom9.jpg
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/1919/chamjungleroom5.jpg

Cerberus and Charlotte sleeping together, before she reached sexual maturity and swore off men: http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8832/cerberusandcharlottesle.jpg

Young Daedalus and Cobalt eating out of the communal feeding "cup," a large white storage container into which I'd dump in food every day: http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2271/cobaltanddaedaluseatingy.jpg

Cerberus out to watch TV with me: http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7656/img1084q.jpg

Cerberus and Cobalt during a shower: http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7884/img3895bh.jpg

so as we can see its doable. but she was working with a huge freerange setup.

 

[ChappyMcChap]

i build my own out of black aluminum screen (gives better visibility) splined into basic window framing. virtually exactly what youd get from LLLreptile and other her suppliers.

has a much cleaner look IMO

Where do you get your supplies to build those and other than a bead roller what specialty tools do you need/use? Do you save a significant amount of money over buying one?

 

[carol5208]

welcome to the forums and future chameleon ownership! I am from Chicago originally and live in Florida now. I LOVE the Shedd Aquarium. The oceanarium overlooking Lake Michigan is awesome!

 

[ChappyMcChap]

Haha yeah that's called a bead roller I believe. But i thought you had to use a machine to get the groove into raw aluminum stock.That's not bad at all really. Was it hard to get the screen stretched the way it should? What did you do about the PVC flooring? Karma yeah she'll geeeetcha.

 

[DekuScrub]

Haha yeah that's called a bead roller I believe. But i thought you had to use a machine to get the groove into raw aluminum stock.That's not bad at all really. Was it hard to get the screen stretched the way it should? What did you do about the PVC flooring? Karma yeah she'll geeeetcha.

i got the aluminum with the groove in it already.

stretching it out and making sure you get it all perfect takes a couple of test panels. to get it perfect, you know.

you end up slipping with the bead roller here and there especially if you get impatient. leaves creases in the screen that you really cant get rid of completely. but theyre still functionally sound.

so you just need to focus and be patient. i also think i got a spline size too large for the aluminum i got. but even so it just makes the panels stronger.

when i replaced a panel in one of the the cages i had purchase i pulled out the spline and it was a smaller gauge and had ridges running lengthwise.

the big panels in the 2x4x4 cage i built for my mellers were a bit difficult to get as taut as i wanted. could have used an assistant.

so yeah at $400 for 10 standard sized cages thats $40 a peice in comparison to more than double that retail.

in regards to the flooring i lucked out. i took a panel from one of the cages i bought to a construction and building materials place a couple towns over. i just walked in with the panel (i dont think i was supposed to be in the shop rifling through their materials) i asked some random worker if he had any of "this" he checked it out for a min and offered me a whole bunch of chunks of similar material for free. they were just gonna trash it anyways.

it wasnt cut to size and figuring out how to score it and crack it just right ended up being a major pain in the butt. they have some materials at home depot near the melamine that arent too expensive you could probabaly use just fine. seemed a bit flimsy though. i think thats why i didnt go that direction.

ONE last thing.

my father worked for a flag company so we have rolls of nylon or whatever. rather than draping segments like i had been i realized i could simply spline the fabric into the frame for visual barriers. also gives it some pizazz.

i used baby blue, forest green and just plain white. everything else we had was a bit on the intense side. oranges and reds and such.

so if you can find sheets of fabric i would highly recommend doing that for visual barriers

hope that helps

 

[herpmagnet]

Still considering building my own, but diycages.com seems pretty cheap and recommended throughout this forum.

Bumping for this question, as opposed to bogging down with an additional thread:

Will a 48X24X24 be too large an enclosure for a ~6 month old male panther?

Just curious if I will need to consider a juv enclosure or not.

thanks as always for your response

 

[ChappyMcChap]

My panther is a six month old and he is in an adult cage. As long as you have plenty of pathways for him to get around and cover for him to feel secure you should be find. Also deku I will update you if I find a decent price on materials to build my own. Right now I'm getting some mid sized cages for two females coming.

 

[laurie]

Welcome!

we always say bigger is better for cham enclosures...

my ONLY warning, they are addicting!!!!!
lol. i have four, one on hold, and one im probably abuot ot get to breed.

you probably wont be able to do two panthers in that cage, just beacause males are mostly territorial, and amale female will stres the female out and they wil constantly breed, which will shorten her life span.


other than that, build to you rhearts content!

I completely disagree. If you are a new cham owner, I expect you may want to see your cham. Put a small cham in that size enclosure, not only will you not see it but you will not know if it is eating, drinking and pooping. All those are very important, and with a second cham you just doubled all those possible problems. For a stable adult big is better, but for a baby - not so much.

you might could make .2 panthers work.
for wood, nothing pressure treated.
whatever you use though, make sure you waterrpoof it.
and with a cage that big, youll need an auto mister. i would sugges tthe mist king deluxe system.

and of course, egg laying bins.

i plan on using window screen mesh for my cham cages im building this weekend.

Again I disagree, when you are new you will lack the experience to know it one is stressing the other, and tha could result in you losing a chameleon to stress.

oh and as far as housing 2 together goes it can be done.

tht sounds sufficient for 2 females.

though territorial disputes may erupt if you eventually mate them and either are gravid

ive been of the predisposition males should never ever be housed together based on personal experience and what is commonly recommended. for any reason from stress to literal wounds.

HOWEVER

Olympia laid the smack down on that rule as being written in stone for me today.

she posted this in the thread i started titled "cagemates? taboo or...."



so as we can see its doable. but she was working with a huge freerange setup.

As for it being doable, Olympia no longer free ranges her chams and would most likely not advise that for a new person, I certainly would not advise it.The number of hazards to a free range chameleon are amazing. I do have one that free ranges and that takes caring for one to a whole different level.

Now let me say welcome to the forum. Now only did you not take of to much space, you are what I always love to see, a person who is intelligent and knows that knowledge it the key to success in a number of activities. I have been keeping chameleons for a lot of years and am always saddened to see people offer knowledge not based on some long term personal experience, and instead quote what others have said. Some of the things you have been told are not wrong, but they are taken out of context, and don't apply to what you have ask.
I am sorry I have taken so long, but since you are new and researching before you have a dying chameleon, I just want to to have some good information to start with.

 

[herpmagnet]

Most appreciated Laurie and everybody else!


I was more thinking on the long term as far as housing two chams together, just trying to rationalize the space I have (I plan on more than one cham at some point.)

I'm not considering free-ranging at this point either. I'm beginning to understand all of the complications of it, and no creature deserves to be less than adequately provided for due to a caretaker with little experience.

Two-cham cage idea is sprawling from my window availability in the only room my fiance will allow me to use. Without much knowledge on handling yet, my general idea would be to have an afternoon basking enclosure, yet I know that basking would likely be a higher time for conflict. This idea (afternoons spent together) would especially be the case if I chicken out/have no luck/etc. on the idea of permanently housing two together. (My only idea ever with housing two together is 0.2 btw...)

More just my ramblings at this point If any of you get a chance, feedback on a good cham book or two (my separate thread, or right here) for my upcoming vacation would be most appreciated!

Thanks as always everybody!