Carpet Chameleons...Concerns

Cameron B

Established Member
Hi all,
I bought a pair of Carpets from the Chameleon Company quite recently. They were wild caught's, but were in captivity for over a month and were imported in early January as hatchlings, under 2" total length. I would say they now rate as well established, and it is believed they can be accurately dated age wise at being less than six months, and likely less than five.

Anyways, when they arrived on the 8th (4 days ago), they looked beautiful and quite healthy. I know it's not suggested to put chameleons together, but these two had been before, and since I had a 65 gallon enclosure full of umbrella, lily kim, and hibiscus plants I decided it may be okay. However, the female kept a stressed (black/colorful) coloration and at times made it a point to go after the male, whom continually kept a green, black patterned coloration. I decided that since the female was being so territorial I would go purchase another Reptarium (this time a 38 gallon). I have also put in another Umbrella plant in it for good foilage and put the male into this new enclosure.

Since moving the male into this enclosure he's become very much so more "active" in that he moves around like crazy. He's drinking okay, eats maybe two crickets only a day thus far (he's offered more but just won't eat them), and now has maintained a darker brown/black coloration. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seems as though it's becoming tough to keep these guys happy! Most of today the female kept going to the bottom of the reptarium and kept the stressed coloration, but just a little while ago she finally turned a greener color with a reddish pattern. I will post some pics in a bit, but need people's opinions.

Is the male stressed? Is it only because he's been moved into the new enclosure last night?

One other thing to mention is that it was a fairly nice day today, and I allowed he and his new enclosure to go outside. During this time there seemed to be a few periods where he was more green that most, but he's back to clinging to the side of the cage and being a very dark color again.


Temperatures:

Basking Spot - 85-90
Ambient - 65-70
Humidity - 55-60%

I mist these guys multiple times daily, and again, they appear to be okay with drinking...eating seems to be on and off. Thanks for any info. The female doesn't seem to eat, even with a cricket cup today.

Cameron
 
As promised, some pictures...I'm also a little concerned by the white skin peel or whatever it may be on the male. Not sure what this may be.

Male is the darker one, Female more colorful...

Cameron
 

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Have you owned chams before? It's one of the reasons I stay away from WC chams. Some of them have a very hard time acclimating to captive care. Your female may be gravid as this species matures quite early. I would keep a sand box in the bottom of the cage just in case she is. Can they see each other? If so, this will stress both of them. The male will be very stressed because he wants to get at her. Put a divider between them so they can't be seen.
 
David,
I have indeed had chams before. I have had Jackson's and Panthers, but this is my first time with WC's. I don't believe the female is gravid, as she's been in captivity before me for over a month and has never displayed the gravid colors up until now with the stress I believe she has. However, the colors displayed above are not a stressful color I don't believe.

The male and female are in completely different rooms, so them seeing each other is also not an issue.

Regards,
Cameron
 
I think its best if someone who has experience in carpet chameleons gives advice, they seem to be way different from your normal veiled or panther.
 
I think Bucky is right about that. I don't have any exp. with carpets. It sounds like their food intake is a little low, but if their reaching maturity, their food intake would drop anyway so not sure what to tell you. Hopefully someone with more exp. with carpets can help you. Why don't you try and PM Trace. I think he has some carpets or did. If not I'm sure he can steer you in the right direction. Good luck with them. I've thought about getting them several times but didn't because of the short lifespan. Keep everyone posted. David
 
David; thanks for the compliments. It's gratifying sometimes to see ones work get noticed. Oh, and I'm a she BTW. :p

Cameron: I've spent the day puzzling over your problem(s) and I'm not seeing anything that out of the ordinary?!?! I think you may have answered your own questions?!?!
In respects to the male, I'm glad you separated him out. I've noticed (as well as you now ;) ) the males to be quite active and I feel strongly that they should be kept singly. They like to patrol their territories on a daily basis and because of that a larger cage is psychologically warranted for them. As they get older, (several years +) they do tend to calm down and become more sedentary. It does look like your male is going into a shed and combine that with a new proper living situation for him (both from Chamco and without cagemates) he looks to be stressed to me. Give him some time, plenty cover and privacy and he should calm down.

The female looks good too. You may be seeing some receptive colours right now with the red and if that is so I wouldn't necessarily mate her immediately. Let them both settle in - and that may take a while - before you add the stressors of breeding to her schedule. Her early activity again sounds like she exploring a cage and getting to know her new "digs". As you already know from previous chameleon experience, always keep a lay container in the cage with your female.

Your temperatures both basking and ambient are fine. I'm a firm believer that ALL chameleons need higher humidity than 60% so maybe work on that. Extra misting sessions won't hurt them either. Their lack of appetite is bothersome in some ways, particularly for the female - those gals love to eat! I don't believe in cup feeding. Period. I find house flies are a great feeder to get picky eaters and new acquired WC chams feeding. I bought my larvae from GrubCo (www.grubco.com). Maybe try some of them initially. I'd also recommend getting at least a fecal done on both the male and female to check for internal parasites. Most WC chams are rife with them.

The links given by LPR08 are excellent. Give them a read.

How are the pair today? Did you have particular concerns about the pair or is it more of new owner jitters at this point?

Good luck. Carpet Chameleons are vastly underrated IMHO.
Cheers,
t
 
Damn Trace!! I've talked to you several times (on here), PM'd you and always just assumed you were a he. Sorry about that. I've actually referred you more times than you know! You've always been very knowledgable and helpful. David (Male)
 
Hi Trace,
Thanks for the reply! I think mainly my jitters are coming from the newness to this pair. I'm finding Carpets to be a bit more of a challenge than any other chameleon I have had. They are quite shy, definitely don't want to be around people, and are very fast. I've never seen such sudden color changing in a type of chameleon before, and their stress just adds to mine. ;)

Today was 90 degrees outside, so I let them both go out in their respective cages. The male seems to like this, both today and yesterday, as he turns quite green when outside, but the second the sun goes into a shadow mode he definitely gets back to the colors shown above. This was the female's first day outside, and I'm somewhat mixed on it. She stayed most the day very well hidden in the plants, only moving around with misting sessions. During those times she was the colors as shown above, but the second she moved to the sun she got into the black background with all the "pretty" colors on her (gravid-like colors). When they are outside they are very much left alone.

I would love to breed these guys, but I want to first make sure I get everything down to a "T." Ideally, I'd like to leave them outside all day/night, but at what temperatures it's safe to do so, I don't know. I live in California, so the heat here is a very dry heat, and they are misted about 4 times daily thus far if left outside. It's currently 93 degrees outside, and supposed to get down to 50 tonight. With such a huge temperature drop, I don't know what is and isn't "safe" for them.

Thanks for any info! :)

Cameron
 
As of today the male still has the darker coloration. However, the female is now displaying much darker red stripes with a darker green coloration as well, similar to what is in the photo (more striking).

They seem to be picking up on their cricket intake, however (I think). I'll monitor it more closely today again. Also, the male seems to open his mouth and either inhale or exhale (if the room is dead quiet you can hear it), kinda like a hissing noise, but this is even when he doesn't see me. I can be across the room. I'd say he can do this 4-5 times a day that I've seen so far. Any ideas on that?

Thanks...

Cam
 
the male seems to open his mouth and either inhale or exhale (if the room is dead quiet you can hear it), kinda like a hissing noise, but this is even when he doesn't see me. I can be across the room. I'd say he can do this 4-5 times a day that I've seen so far. Any ideas on that?

Thanks...

Cam

this could be an URI, search threw old threads for information and this.
it will give you an overview of what URI is and a better way of deciding
if your cham has it. if you think in the slightest way he does, you should
take him to the vet.
is there a lot of saliva in his mouth?
bubbles?
 
I don't believe there is much saliva as I see no foaming or bubbles when he drinks, which I know is a sign of URI. I will keep a close watch on it for now...
 
Hey, all. I've now had the male in his new enclosure for 4 days and he's still very dark...sometimes darker than the photo I have posted in this topic. The only time he reverts to green is when he is sleeping (as he should), but the minute lights are up, it's back to normal dark...which shouldn't be the norm!

It's interesting to note that even though he was getting a very territorial and defensive response from the female when he was with her, he remained a vibrant and pretty green. However, she always kept a stressed coloration. Now it seems the roles have changed. She remains pretty as ever (so obviously it was he that was stressing her out), but now he is as stressed as can be.

Any ideas? Trace? Any help is really appreciated here!

I also just got done building a misting system. I hope to install this soon in the cages, allowing 2-3 minute showers 2-3 times a day on a timer. We'll see how that goes when it gets setup. Until then, not really sure what to do.

Also, regarding free-ranging. It seems tough to do. While they will eat when crickets are in view, the second those crickets get below the foilage it's almost a done deal. The male seems a little more apt to accepting the cup feeding, but the female won't even try it, even when she sees the crickets in the cup. The second they are out and in view (for the short while they are), she'll eat away at them.

Thanks for any info!

Cameron
 
Hey Cameron!

Again I've been mulling this over all day and I'm not sure what to say. It does sound like he's still a little stressed out?!?! Some take a little longer that others - there is no hard and set rule for that.

Maybe post an updated pic of the male for reference if you get a chance. Myself and others may see some differences between the before and after to help you onto the right path.

Considering your location and high temperatures (we had snow last weekend :( ) I'd increase the amount of watering you are doing to the pair. Extra water is not going to hurt at this point.

Keep me updated. I might not be the fastest to respond these days, but I'm certainly interested in your progress with your new critters.
Cheers,
t
 
Hey Cameron, I am thinking of two scenarios.

One is that he is not warm enough, and that he is trying to warm up. I saw the temps you listed but look at his behaviour, if he is trying to get as close to the heating light as possible that will be a clue. This could also explain his lack of appetite-slower metabolism.

The second thought that comes to mind is a parasitic bloom. WC Lateralis are known for their heavy parasite loads. At this point a fecal sample should be collected, and taken to the vet.

Good luck, Lateralis are awesome!
T.
 
Hey Cam

I’ve been thinking about your concerns your having with your Carpets since I stumbled upon this forum, let alone thread this morning. I am working with a 3.12 Carpet (F. Lat Lat) Colony as well as Veiled’s and Panthers.

Hopefully, I can share something that may help you out a bit. These are things that have worked for me. The cool and yet sometimes frustrating thing about Cham husbandry is that many people have had great success with differing husbandry. So asking a lot of questions and doing research you will be able to find what works for your pair.

There is great information in this thread.

Carpets are just one of the neatest chams I have worked with, but it didn’t come without some frustrations, learning and trial and error.

Let me comment about your pics you posted first.

The female is definitely showing “receptive” coloration. The pastels and lack of the “darks” is the sign (unless she’s ticked or stressed, then you’ll see the darks come in)
If she’s throwing up the stressed coloration (darks) when the male is presented to her, she is either just plain stressed from all the changes at once and/or saying “Im not interested in you.” Some females will be receptive to any male, while others will only accept a specific male while a couple simply don’t want any of them. I would agree with what was said in an earlier post, I wouldn’t attempt to breed them until they are well settled. Like Trace said, keep a lay container in the bottom of the cage with 6ish inches of bedding. When the time comes she will either dig and lay the eggs, or simply perch and scatter them about the bottom of the cage. Why Carpets do this, I have no idea.

The male looks like he’s getting his shed going. They get real pissy when this happens and their appetite tapers off.

Carpet Cham Environment(s)

This was one of the MOST frustrating things to nail down. You have to realize that Carpets inhabit most of Madagascar, except for a couple regions in the North. What that means to us? It means that they not only live in the dense and humid forest areas, but they also live in the dry areas as well. Additionally, we (unless the people we purchased them from tell us the locale they were collected) really have no clue what the best humidity/temp will be for our Carpets, without some trial and error.

Your enclosure sizes are great. We keep ours in 16x16x30. However, one thing that I learned is that Carpets like dense foliage, and I do mean dense. This is a very shy and easily stressed species (not to mention aggressive and territorial). Although I have screen cages, I’ve found that taking something like a piece of cardboard and putting it on the back and one side and really packing in some foliage in that area has proven good for them. In that area, they cant see out of the cage (so there is no visible stimuli) and can hide back there and “feel” they are really hidden. This usually really helps when acclimating WCs to their new home, regardless of age.

Hydration/Humidity – My Carpets love to drink. I like seeing that you installed a misting system. That’s a huge plus. I run mine 4 times a day with a 10 minute cycle (as mentioned in the Chameleon Ezine article whose link is posted above by LPR08) Additionally, I use a dripper that runs throughout the day. Some have said that is excessive water, however, I haven’t had a single Carpet complain yet and they have never been even remotely dehydrated.

I see that your humidity was between 55-60%. I believe it was Trace who said that should be higher. I agree with her completely on that. My humidity is between 75-85%. Again, this has just worked for me.

There is a caveat to this though. You mentioned your Male gasping. Well, Carpets are notorious for Upper Resp Infections. With their watering and humidity needs, the chances increase that this could happen. I would watch him over the weekend and if he continues, err on the side of caution and take him to a vet and if necessary get him antibiotic shots. One of the males had a URI and after the second shot (Three shots, three days apart) showed huge improvement.

Temperature – By increasing your humidity and water offering, it appears your female (beyond being “receptive”) is liking your environment you’ve created. However, your male seems to indicate that there just isn’t something right. When you took him outside and let him soak in the natural sunlight and the temp was 90, he colored up. Keeping in mind what I said before about the many locales these chams are harvested from, Tokoloshe is right. Bump up the Ambient temp in the cage. We have a few that love it hot. The rest we have love it cooler. Now, be careful. If you are solely using a heat lamp on the top of the cage as the heat source, you have to watch your Cham to make sure he isn’t climbing on the underside of the screen and in essence frying his belly. The nerves (ie heat receptors) aren’t as sensitive as they are on their backs. The low end of the gradient in my cages is 72ish during the day. I would bump up in small increments and observe.

Feeding – Well, simply put, my Carpets LOVE roaches and I do mean LOVE. It seems WCs more then CB. We feed our Carpets gutloaded crickets as a staple, but roaches will come in close second. If a roach and cricket are sitting side by side, they will take a roach over a cricket any day. The picky eater will usually go nuts over roaches if they shy away from crickets. Keep in mind, like with any Cham, variety is key here. We feed Lobster roaches and crickets that are gutloaded, as well as other feeder insects. However, pay attention to the amount of protein that the gutload contains. These little guys cant handle the same amount of protein that most gutload recipes and supplements contain. Their little liver simply can’t handle it like larger chams (panthers, veileds) can.

Another thing to try, if they are really not eating is flies. Just make sure the flies are safe, collected from a pesticide free area, as you don’t want your Cham to get that junk in their system. Now, flies aren’t a staple, however, I’ve found that in some instances where the roach just wont do it, it will spark the appetite.

Lastly, I think it was Tokoloshe who mentioned the parasite load. That’s right. With WC’s, despite being treated with drugs at the facility where you got them, can still develop them again. What does their stool look like? A real easy way to rule that out is collecting a fresh sample and taking it to the vet for a smear. I don’t know what it would cost for you, but it cost me in the ballpark of $30/ea. My vet doesn’t require me to bring in my Cham for an office visit, so that saves a little money. There is no guarantee that one parasite treatment will rectify the issue once and for all. Its just another thing we have to deal with WC’s.

It would be nice to see some updated pics if you have a chance. Maybe some of your enclosure/setup?

Now, keep in mind, these things have worked for me. It’s by no means set in stone.

Good Luck and let us know how things progress.

Sage
 
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