Can Chameleons drink too much?!

[lzoronz]

Hi
I have a 1 year old Panther Male, he has a new cage which is actually a Parrot Cage but he seems to love climbing around the bars and we have got around the heat escape problems with lots of fake leaves around the top and my girlfriend is pregnant so we have the heating up super high all the time anyway, we have managed to maintain his hotspots at the appropriate temperature.

With the stress of changing cages he stopped drinking for a few days and we somewhat panicked, upped his spray time to 15 mins 3 times a day, he has started drinking again but is drinking loads and on a couple of occasions I have caught him drinking directly from the nossle of the air pressured sprayer (which we hook onto the cage and leave) only when its squirting out the last bit without much pressure.

We try not to leave it now because the first time he did it he kinda burped back up the water, but he occasionally does it when you are not paying attention.

Over the last few days he has been basking with his mouth open for prolonged periods (no weezing or popping noises), I know that this is a trait of the veiled but have never seen our panther do it before. My questions are-

Is this a Panther trait?

Do they know when to stop drinking?(I know they can be greedy if left with too much food)

Might this be him dehydrating himself if he has drank too much or could some water have got into his lung

Its been 2 day of him doing it. Am I over panicking or should I take him to the vets?

Any advice greatly appreciated

 

[BocaJan]

That is usually a sign of too high temps in his basking area. Be sure to take the temps where he sits. Put your basking bulb up a couple inches higher and mist him when he has his mouth open to cool him down a bit.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I think it unlikely they would drink more than they need intentionally.
Sounds like you chameleon is a good candidate for a dripper

edit: and I agree the mouth open could be it's too hot.

 

[Syn]

Try making a dripper, I believe Sandra has a great way of making these.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

He's too hot.
This is not a trait of veiled chameleons ... it is what any chameleon does when it is trying to cool down.

-Brad

 

[lzoronz]

Thanks for all the responses I have taken away his second hot spot to see if that helps, I did it this morning and he is still doing it at the moment but early days I guess.

Something that worried me slightly was that last time I took him to the vets they did some tests and found that he had worms which we treated successfully but he said that he also found an unusual bacteria in his faeces. He said that there was lots of bacteria that was friendly and the chances were it was harmless but if I wanted he could extract it make a culture and Identify it for the tidy sum of £480. I just could not afford that at the time but I kinda wish I had got the peace of mind now..

Cheers

 

[BocaJan]

Give him a misting and turn off the basking bulb for a couple of hours and see what happens. I bet he closes his mouth.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I think it unlikely they would drink more than they need intentionally.
Sounds like you chameleon is a good candidate for a dripper

Exactly. Spray nozzles from misting are foreign to its natural environment. It was just going for water, as it would get from a rain and dripping, and found this high-pressure spray gadget. One further example of how some misters are a bad idea, while drippers are where its at !

As to gaping, yes it is a natural means of thermo-regulating. I might take issue with it being "too hot" of a spot though. We see chameleons near the top of 4' tall cages, basking in real sunshine, employing this behavior often, when it has options to move lower in its cage to cooler temps if it desired. If the animal were already lower in its cage, and still gaping, then it would certainly support a conclusion of "too hot", and with the info you have provided, it is possible that your cage is too hot. If one is to create a thermal gradient within a cage, by definition it would include a location that was hot enough for the chameleon to choose to occupy and not seek a hotter one. Mouth opening to thermo-regulate usually indicates a spot is warm enough, but is it too warm ? "Choice" is the key word, and if there is only one choice, (i.e. Only one spot to get warm) you might need to consider more options. Try adding a second basking spot in close proximity, where the temp difference might be 5 degrees lower, thereby creating a true choice. These animals are smart enough to retire to cooler positions so long as they are available, and within the realm of what its natural instincts influence. Not to be confused with burns that occur with poorly calibrated and uneven infra-red in some of the unnatural situations we can create.

How warm should the hottest basking spot be ? 95-100 degrees for a veiled or panther usually covers it, measured by taping a stem thermometer to the basking spot, face towards the heat, for 10 minutes. Calibrate things so that it stays in that range, then remove it. That should be the hottest spot in the cage.

Why would a chameleon maintain a position in the sun where it must hold its mouth open to cool ? Besides being a normal part of its thermoregulation, for instance when it may be seeking elevated warmth at the start of its active day, it may also be a way of maintaining oversight from a high position, a somewhat "hot" position even in the wild, but also the one with the view.

Good luck with all.

 

[Chameleon Company]

He said that there was lots of bacteria that was friendly and the chances were it was harmless but if I wanted he could extract it make a culture and Identify it for the tidy sum of £480

Is there any build-up of mucous in its mouth, more than at earlier times, or more than what you may be familiar with in other panthers ? Not looking for any popping sounds or respiratory distress with this observation, just mucous. Thanks.

 

[BocaJan]

How warm should the hottest basking spot be ? 95-100 degrees for a veiled or panther usually covers it, measured by taping a stem thermometer to the basking spot, face towards the heat, for 10 minutes.

The ambient temps in my house is 75. I keep the basking temp 10, no higher than 15 degrees above that. So, basking temps are between 85-90. I feel 100 degrees is too hot. Why would I even offer it that hot? Yes, chams can go to a cooler space, but why submit them to those kinds of temps? We see chameleons here often with burned casques and backs. I won't take that chance.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Why would I even offer it that hot? Yes, chams can go to a cooler space, but why submit them to those kinds of temps? We see chameleons here often with burned casques and backs. I won't take that chance.

And that is certainly your prerogative. As to how we have arrived at certain temperature ranges here (aka "these kinds of temps"), and the advice we render, is that we let the animals choose. You are correct about "burned casques", but that was not from sunshine, rather from poor husbandry. Husbandry management adds risks in all aspects of this animal's self-management. Done poorly, and we know the results.

Back to choice. We had approximately 200 animals individually housed in tall cages, exposed to the real sun, ambient air in the mid 80's. Plenty of choice opportunities, and we let them make choices. We then used IR temp guns to register their skin surface temperatures on those parts getting the most sun (i.e their topsides, not abdomen). Skin surface temps of 98-102 were very common in mid-size to larger animals. This is not to say that their internal temps were this high. Far from it. You asked

With the animal mentioned here, advice has been offered based on an assumption that the animal is "too hot". There may be a completely different cause for the behavior seen as well. My process would be to insure that the animal has the proper thermal gradient, safely applied, rather than fix something that ain't broke. A review of the thermal options in the cage would be most prudent IMMHO. If they are proper, with adequate choices, then in our view, the temperature issue is eliminated, although due diligence is always recommended.

Rhetorically asking, in example, what if the keeper lowers the basking temperature a few degrees, and the animal still gapes ? Is it to be lowered a few more degrees ? Objectively speaking, where is the bottom point of this exercise, at which point one says "It ain't the temperature. Raise it back to the range that this animal has in the wild, and lets look to another answer"? I am not saying that what has been suggested here is a "knee-jerk" reaction, but I do think the approach needed some tweeking, to better insure a correct evaluation. Thanks.

 

[lzoronz]

Thanks for all the responses, I found the problem!!!!!! Its a weird one!

He got less and less active and went grayer and grayer I got really worried about him and then yesterday he went to the toilet and it was HUGE like the size of a clipper lighter (for want of a better comparison!) I think he was really really constipated.

He only goes to the toilet out of his cage for some reason and only when he is allowed to walk around the lounge for ages, we had stopped getting him out so often because I thought it might be the stress that was making him ill. I got him out yesterday and he went.

He is now much more active and seems much happier, Woohoo!

So now I have a new problem! Why does a chameleon get constipated and how do I solve it?

 

[Syn]

From reading a bit, I've read upping their temps and giving them a warm (but not scolding hot) bath does help.

Some people recommend a warm bath. That seems to work in many cases. Do a search for it on this forum under "bath" or "impaction". In the mean time, I would be careful not to over feed him.

 

[Titan]

In responce to your Chameleons constipation. I have quite a few Chameleons of all varried species. And It has always been my observation that at least ALL my Chams DO NOT like to poop, anywhere near where they like to sleep of hang out. I free range alot of my animals and knowing this I usually set the area up with a clear branch that extends out from that general area of the rest of the set up.
Low and behold this is always where they crawl out to to take a dump! It seem they also like it to fall well away and far down as possible. I usually set up a plastic mat right below that spot for real easy cleanup.
So I am suggesting you protrude a branch out of a good opening on your cage, so the animal can go out and use the restroom but cannot excape. Your Cham may love you for setting him up with this, so he can go when he wants to, Not when he has to wait to be taken out.

 

[Syn]

So I am suggesting you protrude a branch out of a good opening on your cage, so the animal can go out and use the restroom but cannot excape. Your Cham may love you for setting him up with this, so he can go when he wants to, Not when he has to wait to be taken out.

How would you go about doing this? What if you have a jumper?

 

[Titan]

Well I have only had one jumper and It was a Fishers, I just set up a 10" metal flashing (topped with a plastic fish tank air hose, sliced and fitted along the top of the metal edge for safety and protection) setting up and placing it around the area below. But far enough out the jumper can't jump out past it. If this is the case I always set up a vine or nice looking stick down into that area so the Cham can climb back up should it jump down there.
Ok I just remembered I have a Female Jacksons that was doing that to me. Only I have a large plastic container below, That set up is out in my Heated breeding Garage, so After a bit I'll take a Pic of it and repost it later today.

 

[Syn]

thanks Titan. I don't want to assume my new panther isn't a jumper - I like this idea.

 

[ciafardo 4]

He's too hot.
This is not a trait of veiled chameleons ... it is what any chameleon does when it is trying to cool down.

-Brad

hey brad dont want to be a party pooper but its a panther

 

[lzoronz]

Thats a good idea Titan but unfortunately the owner before me trimmed his nails (and they never fully grew back) so he does occasionally fall off stuff.

Its good to hear that this is not an unusual trait, I'm gonna have to think of a solution that hopefully does not end up with me having to build him a poop cage!